Control4 X4

[Cyknight]

18 hours ago, South Africa C4 user said:

Thanks @Cyknight - I think I will follow this suggestion this time round! I have a 10x10 matrix at one house with plenty of inputs spare and an 8x8 at the other house so it definitely makes sense. If X4 has a go to room command (I always hoped the navigation agent would bring this in and while there are drivers out there that do this, none that I know of work on the Core series) then 2 Core1s into the matrix would be enough for 7 or 8 TVs…

You wouldn't even need it: Pressing the "red 4" on a rooms remote will auto switch the OSD to that room.

[Cyknight]

12 hours ago, ekohn00 said:

Wouldn't it be the controller that speaks to the internet, not the switches?

Directly or indirectly is the wording.

[South Africa C4 user]

5 hours ago, Cyknight said:

You wouldn't even need it: Pressing the "red 4" on a rooms remote will auto switch the OSD to that room.

You learn something new every day!

[ILoveControl]

22 hours ago, pdapice said:

there is also the obvious answer here: they did it for the money.

Yes for sure and Imo that's totally fair, they are a business and need to grow. It's always a fine balance for me personally, the price needs to be justified in terms of return for the consumer (innovation, features, stability). Again this is personal opinion - C4 is on the cusp of playing catch up from being far behind VS being the leader which allows them to focus on constantly innovating. For any software / services business this is always a dangerous position to be in. 

Granted it's early we don't have many details of x4 what we do have imo doesn't justify the upgrade hardware cost a better strategy could have been clearer road map of hw deprecation VS features. I am hoping they come with much more innovation like much more integration with the plathora of IoT devices out there, Home Assistant does this so well and hence why it has an incredible following. It's 2024 going to 2025 and we still dont have basic things like (amongst others) streaming 4k camera images or resolution higher than 1280. If it requires more horse power on the director or controllers then price it as such. Spotify integration is just clunky yes there is Apple music but choice once again..... Not everyone has Apple devices or wants Apple music, tidal integration was the right direction but ended up being clunky. 

I think their model is good and where they going is positive. Where I would like to see them maturing to justify their cost (and remember we choose to pay it we can always go with other providers like Home assistant) is keep their core hardware as C4 branded because it's incredible HW just works but open up the system to the other IoT devices. Something as simple as creating a platform to consume MQTT would go a long way. 

For clarity I am a huge fan of C4 I have been on this platform for decades, moved my system house to house and I love the fact it just works. I have huge respect for the professionals that configure and maintain it as it's a complicated system BUT I'm getting to the point (and this could be niche) I'm a geek I love my tech, the platform is becoming outdated in today's world and have built a Home Assistant in Parallel to see if it can eventually take over.

[SpencerT]

Cool screenshot of the x4 dashboard posted on LinkedIn from someone at ADI.

[RyanE]

...

Edited Saturday at 08:27 PM by RyanE
Removed duplicate post...

[RyanE]

On 9/12/2024 at 6:52 PM, WhyPhy said:

They can hold clients hostage and some markets don’t have many local alternatives.

And new owners of homes with existing systems didn’t have the ability to choose.

There is no way for a Control4 dealer to 'hold a client hostage'.  There's no way to lock out a different dealer from the project, there's no 'project file' that the current dealer has that a new dealer would have to obtain.

If a new dealer had issues getting into a project, they could get Control4 customer support involved (likely nearly never needed), and be the new dealer of record in minutes.

New owners of homes with existing systems chose by purchasing the house.  You may as well say "I never chose to have a Nest Thermostat" when one is pre-installed in the house.  Yes, you did by not replacing it.

RyanE

[RyanE]

On 9/12/2024 at 11:32 PM, Neo1738 said:

Well if someone were close Zigbee is just a wifi signal they could get unwanted access that way. These devices talk to the controller which talks to the internet thus they are a device that INdirectly talks to the internet.

This is entirely incorrect.

Zigbee is not a Wifi signal.  They both operate on the 2.4 GHz band, but you can't communicate to the internet over a Control4 Zigbee connection.  You can only talk the version of Zigbee that the mesh supports.

Zigbee's mesh network only allows new nodes to join during an open 'pairing' process.  Communications are secured with (and messages are validated with) a randomly generated AES128 network session key, which is sufficient for the type and amount of data that gets sent across Zigbee.

Even if you were able to join a compromised node to a Zigbee mesh, the most you could do is to impersonate being a device.  There's no 'gateway' type functionality available to Zigbee nodes that can grant them access to the local network (and much less even to the Internet).

Zigbee devices don't indirectly talk to the Internet.  They talk to the Zigbee coordinator, which talks to the Control4 controller, and the controller communicates the generic control and status of the Control4 proxy driver over the network (including over a VPN connection over the Internet).  The device itself doesn't know anything about IP, local networks, or the Internet.

Would you say an RS-232 serial controlled thermostat indirectly talks to the Internet?  Exact same scenario.

RyanE

[BY96]

@RyanE - I am sure there are significant limitations to what you can share here about X4, which is totally understandable, but given some of the possible scenarios mentioned on this thread, I am wondering if you can comment at all about the Control4's anticipation about how well X4 will play with all of the third-party devices people currently use with Control4 (which is a major benefit of C4 compared to its competitors), assuming drivers are updated. For example, does Control4 anticipate being able to update most or all of the free drivers for third-party devices or is there some change in X4 that will make the use of some/many/most of the devices not possible? 

I am sure I am showing my ignorance in this question, and my apologies if the answer is obvious. Thank you! 

[WhyPhy]

33 minutes ago, RyanE said:

There is no way for a Control4 dealer to 'hold a client hostage'.  There's no way to lock out a different dealer from the project, there's no 'project file' that the current dealer has that a new dealer would have to obtain.

If a new dealer had issues getting into a project, they could get Control4 customer support involved (likely nearly never needed), and be the new dealer of record in minutes.

You are talking about the technical aspects, and all of these are absolutely true.
 

But there are a lot of very non-technical users out there who would have no idea what Control4 is despite having a C4 system in their house. And if their integrator told them they couldn’t switch to a different integration company, they would believe them. They wouldn’t know how to find another local provider, much less a remote one. Tens of thousands of people fall prey to scams every day. 

[RyanE]

20 minutes ago, WhyPhy said:

You are talking about the technical aspects, and all of these are absolutely true.

Quoted from Futurama: "You are technically correct, the best kind of correct".

20 minutes ago, WhyPhy said:

They wouldn’t know how to find another local provider, much less a remote one. Tens of thousands of people fall prey to scams every day. 

Painting this as being 'held hostage' is extremely misleading.  I'd say it's closer to a lie.

Stupid is as stupid does.

If Control4 provided access to ComposerPro for free to customers, that would not fix stupid.  The customers who are too stupid to research another dealer are *really* too stupid to learn ComposerPro.

What solution are you proposing Control4 take to help end user customers that are 'being held hostage' due solely to their own ignorance?

Spoiler: There isn't one.

RyanE

[IBZICON]

Y’all let’s get this back on the X4 topic before this thread is closed.  

[WhyPhy]

 

1 hour ago, RyanE said:

Stupid is as stupid does.

If Control4 provided access to ComposerPro for free to customers, that would not fix stupid.  The customers who are too stupid to research another dealer are *really* too stupid to learn ComposerPro.

What solution are you proposing Control4 take to help end user customers that are 'being held hostage' due solely to their own ignorance?

Spoiler: There isn't one.

First of all, no one ever said access to Composer should be free. Right to repair regulations clearly state that that it must be made available at a “fair and reasonable price”, which is typically interpreted as being equivalent to what any provider would be charged. 

Secondly, I don’t think any company that refers to customers as being too stupid or ignorant to deserve fair treatment has a defensible position. I think you were creating a hypothetical, but it still presents poorly, especially given the challenges that older generations have with technology. 

Thirdly, there is a small subset of customers who do have the technical expertise to use Composer. Perhaps they were former dealer employees. And perhaps they know more than their local dealer who hadn’t even heard of DriverCentral. 

Regardless, studies have shown that right-to-repair regulations benefit the consumer and also have virtually no measurable financial impact on the companies or service providers. Apple has completely changed their position on right-to-repair by offering parts, tools, and software to third parties and consumers. Their profitably and customer sentiment have both improved since. If only Snap/Resideo were to be so fortunate. 

[WhyPhy]

12 minutes ago, IBZICON said:

Y’all let’s get this back on the X4 topic before this thread is closed.  

Point taken. 

[RyanE]

40 minutes ago, WhyPhy said:

Secondly, I don’t think any company that refers to customers as being too stupid or ignorant to deserve fair treatment has a defensible position.

If you'll read carefully, I was not calling customers stupid.

You said they were not intelligent enough to find another dealer.

I said *if* customers were that stupid, nothing Control4 would/could do can help that.

I've met hundreds of Control4 end user customers, and I don't think any of them are that ignorant.

----------------

And to bring it back on topic, X4 is pretty cool, I'm working on some of the 'Home Screen' functionality, and to answer an earlier question, I would anticipate most if not all current DriverWorks drivers (both provided free by Control4 and/or developed by 3rd parties) should continue to work in an X4 system.

X4 is not a huge architectural change to how things fundamentally work, it's mainly an update of the Navigator User Interface (addition of the home screen, and experience buttons) and the addition of some new functionality (routines and widgets).

Drivers will still be drivers and will work as they currently do, with some exceptions, as mentioned above.

Gen1 Zigbee products unfortunately are based on the much 20 year old Ember Zigbee chips, whose processor doesn't have enough resources (CPU/RAM/Flash) to support a modern Zigbee stack.

RyanE

[BY96]

27 minutes ago, RyanE said:

And to bring it back on topic, X4 is pretty cool, I'm working on some of the 'Home Screen' functionality, and to answer an earlier question, I would anticipate most if not all current DriverWorks drivers (both provided free by Control4 and/or developed by 3rd parties) should continue to work in an X4 system.
X4 is not a huge architectural change to how things fundamentally work, it's mainly an update of the Navigator User Interface (addition of the home screen, and experience buttons) and the addition of some new functionality (routines and widgets).
Drivers will still be drivers and will work as they currently do, with some exceptions, as mentioned above.
Gen1 Zigbee products unfortunately are based on the much 20 year old Ember Zigbee chips, whose processor doesn't have enough resources (CPU/RAM/Flash) to support a modern Zigbee stack.
RyanE

Thank you!

[zaphod]

2 hours ago, RyanE said:

Gen1 Zigbee products unfortunately are based on the much 20 year old Ember Zigbee chips, whose processor doesn't have enough resources (CPU/RAM/Flash) to support a modern Zigbee stack.

I understand the technology of this but it is annoying AF that I will have to spend something like $20k in hardware costs alone to upgrade the 120 or so Gen1 dimmers and keypads if I want to continue to have a system that can be upgraded in the future.  If anyone asks about using C4 I would say that you will have to be prepared to replace about half of your hardware every 10 years and the rest of your hardware every 15-20 years.  My system was installed about 17-18 years ago.

[ekohn00]

2 hours ago, RyanE said:

Gen1 Zigbee products unfortunately are based on the much 20 year old Ember Zigbee chips, whose processor doesn't have enough resources (CPU/RAM/Flash) to support a modern Zigbee stack.

RyanE

Out of curiosity, why can’t Gen2 work with x4 in the future?

[Neo1738]

2 hours ago, ekohn00 said:

Out of curiosity, why can’t Gen2 work with x4 in the future?

More importantly what about a hub to continue to support gen1/2 lighting? I don't have that gen lighting but seems like it could work. If we aren't worried about security than this shouldn't be an issue no @RyanE?

[eggzlot]

3 hours ago, zaphod said:

I understand the technology of this but it is annoying AF that I will have to spend something like $20k in hardware costs alone to upgrade the 120 or so Gen1 dimmers and keypads if I want to continue to have a system that can be upgraded in the future.  If anyone asks about using C4 I would say that you will have to be prepared to replace about half of your hardware every 10 years and the rest of your hardware every 15-20 years.  My system was installed about 17-18 years ago.

18 years is a good run.  X4 won’t be out til q1 2025.  That’s anywhere from 3-6 months out depending on when it hits.  And you don’t need to update day 1 either. 
 

You got ample time to scour eBay, this website and other resources for Gen 3 lighting.  It won’t be cheap but it’s cheaper than buying all new.  
 

Maybe you can start w gen 3 lighting in key areas like heavily used rooms, outdoors etc.   things you want to automate.   Bathrooms, closets, guest rooms etc add over time as you find cheap options

if 3rd party devices still work maybe look at Kasa or other companies w switches for less used rooms?

[msgreenf]

6 hours ago, ekohn00 said:

Out of curiosity, why can’t Gen2 work with x4 in the future?

Gen 1 and 2 are 99% the same. The gen 3 lighting (current) is fine. 

[msgreenf]

6 hours ago, zaphod said:

I understand the technology of this but it is annoying AF that I will have to spend something like $20k in hardware costs alone to upgrade the 120 or so Gen1 dimmers and keypads if I want to continue to have a system that can be upgraded in the future.  If anyone asks about using C4 I would say that you will have to be prepared to replace about half of your hardware every 10 years and the rest of your hardware every 15-20 years.  My system was installed about 17-18 years ago.

And no one says you have to update....your system will continue to function 

[Kaas Mayer]

To be honest, I don't understand the whining. OS3 was regularly developed further and there were free updates. The system will continue to work in the future. 
You may only need new hardware if you want to switch to x4. 18 years is a huge amount from a technological point of view. Many of us change our iPhone every year. 
T3 is already incredibly slow. 

We have our own apps and regularly have to decide how much backwards compatibility we want to offer. It takes an incredible amount of work and slows down development considerably. 

[RyanE]

10 hours ago, Neo1738 said:

More importantly what about a hub to continue to support gen1/2 lighting? I don't have that gen lighting but seems like it could work. If we aren't worried about security than this shouldn't be an issue no @RyanE?

That sounds like a fantastic business opportunity for a 3rd party developer.

RyanE

[Alt]

@RyanE Can you confirm if Gen3 Lighting has the resources "(CPU/RAM/Flash) to support a modern Zigbee stack." & will be updated to Zigbee 3.0 in the future? 

 

16 hours ago, RyanE said:

 

Gen1 Zigbee products unfortunately are based on the much 20 year old Ember Zigbee chips, whose processor doesn't have enough resources (CPU/RAM/Flash) to support a modern Zigbee stack.

RyanE