Control4 X4

[ILoveControl]

13 hours ago, South Africa C4 user said:

My understanding is that this means that EA controllers can be used in OS4.0 with an OS3 on screen display.

However, in OS4.1 and beyond they can still be used but with no on screen display whatsoever…

For me, this is the biggest disappointment on OS4 as lots of people (myself included) have loads of EA1s behind TVs and some of us have done the HC250 upgrade to EA1 and now need to upgrade to Core1 just for the OSD…

It also raises the question of when will the Core1 be replaced by an X1 and should we be waiting to upgrade…

This. Same boat @South Africa C4 user in terms of updating to EA1's and multiple EA5's simply having to upgrade these because of a OSD and some Homekit (I'm a Android user) is disappointing. The other option is not upgrade and stay on OS3 for now (as I tech always evolves etc etc) - that would probably be my choice. The cost of upgrading HW to support the new OS might (most probably :)) be prohibitive. 

It's been said many times on this thread and justified the reason to upgrade and I agree with most points, new features, new innovation, new devices etc etc and that is technology I get it and this might be applicable for a lot of users. I'm being selfish here and looking at my own environment and thinking for what I need C4 for OS3 actually works perfectly.

I hope this isn't the case but these type of platform switches are usually a great business model for pushing not only software innovation but hardware as well and looking at the initial release cycle what is supported and not i.m.o its a matter of time until items like the matrix switches, amps, remotes etc etc will go the way of the dodo. The new interface is very cool (not enough to get me to upgrade hw ;)) and I get the design language behind it as well fresh and very simplistic "Apple like" but to keep the end user in the environment I dont see how SR250s etc can survive. 

Having rambled on the above - I'm a technologist, I'm excited to see what comes of the innovation in X4 maybe they will actually support simple things like MQTT  natively 

[ILoveControl]

35 minutes ago, South Africa C4 user said:

Mine is used in guest rooms and General TV rooms (never on our bedroom TV).  Guests like the old red button on the remote and I have a keypad button which says watch and I tend to have that programmed to turn on the TV, turn off the lights and go to the watch screen on the OSD.  Guests tend to find that an easier way to choose movies, go to satellite or go to Apple TV than using the watch button.

Same in fact in my house the OSD is used A L O T - esp for my young kids, simple SR250 with BIG VISIBLE buttons on thier TV is way better than them fiddling with a neo or halo remote or worse the touch screen - you dont get those indestructible iPad type covers for kids for a T3/4

[zaphod]

I never use the touch screen on the OSD but I am unlikely to go past whatever OS is the last one that can use the Gen 1 switches and dimmers.  I have something like 120 of these devices in my house.  I don't feel like spending $15,000-$20,000, or more, plus labour if I don't do it myself to upgrade.

[Topspin14m]

7 hours ago, ILoveControl said:

This. Same boat @South Africa C4 user in terms of updating to EA1's and multiple EA5's simply having to upgrade these because of a OSD and some Homekit (I'm a Android user) is disappointing. The other option is not upgrade and stay on OS3 for now (as I tech always evolves etc etc) - that would probably be my choice. The cost of upgrading HW to support the new OS might (most probably :)) be prohibitive. 

It's been said many times on this thread and justified the reason to upgrade and I agree with most points, new features, new innovation, new devices etc etc and that is technology I get it and this might be applicable for a lot of users. I'm being selfish here and looking at my own environment and thinking for what I need C4 for OS3 actually works perfectly.

I hope this isn't the case but these type of platform switches are usually a great business model for pushing not only software innovation but hardware as well and looking at the initial release cycle what is supported and not i.m.o its a matter of time until items like the matrix switches, amps, remotes etc etc will go the way of the dodo. The new interface is very cool (not enough to get me to upgrade hw ;)) and I get the design language behind it as well fresh and very simplistic "Apple like" but to keep the end user in the environment I dont see how SR250s etc can survive. 

Having rambled on the above - I'm a technologist, I'm excited to see what comes of the innovation in X4 maybe they will actually support simple things like MQTT  natively 

Do you guys really use the OSD?  I've never really found a great use case for it when I've almost always got my phone in my hand and the interface of going from TV to OSD back to TV seems a little clunky.  

That said, I think this is a critical upgrade for C4--one they have to make.  The competition is really hammering away at their GUIs and they are really slick/easy to use.  Having a home screen with a bunch of key, often used, buttons is a game changer, even though it sounds like not much.  I think C4 is still by far the best interface for media/TV, but others will gain.  Additionally, having Homekit means you can add some devices within Homekit but not C4 and still have everything in one place.  That really helps with people who want some element of DIY, or don't want to have a whole house C4 system.  It also at least opens up the future possibility that there will be further integration with Google Home or other systems.  I'm very excited for this--I wish it would work on more legacy hardware but that's the problem with tech generally.  It's a diminishing resource.

[ticketsubmitter]

It sounds from the little C4 has released that the HomeKit integration is one way: your C4 stuff shows up in HomeKit but HomeKit stuff does not show up in C4. At least that’s how I read it. 

[Topspin14m]

11 minutes ago, ticketsubmitter said:

It sounds from the little C4 has released that the HomeKit integration is one way: your C4 stuff shows up in HomeKit but HomeKit stuff does not show up in C4. At least that’s how I read it. 

Agreed.  But, even so, if you are a HomeKit user you may keep using HomeKit and not the C4 app.  So you could have some random HomeKit devices and your C4 stuff all in HomeKit, and keep C4 itself more limited.

Or, you could have a huge C4 build out and just use HomeKit for Siri.  I don't think there could be a great way for HomeKit devices to just load into C4--you'd need a dealer anyway to help with that integration. The only major benefit then would be that you could avoid paying for drivers, but I think we want to keep a robust driver community (which requires incentive/$). 

[Gene]

I'm glad that when I built my house I did Lutron lighting.  I get their issue but it really puts alot of people in a difficult situation in upgrading lighting let alone all the controllers behind tv's that are less than 3 or so years old.  I would of thought C4 would create some appliance/box to run the old hardware as they also entice buyers to buy into the x4 platform.

 

[msgreenf]

1 hour ago, ticketsubmitter said:

It sounds from the little C4 has released that the HomeKit integration is one way: your C4 stuff shows up in HomeKit but HomeKit stuff does not show up in C4. At least that’s how I read it. 

Correct 

[msgreenf]

48 minutes ago, Topspin14m said:

you could have a huge C4 build out and just use HomeKit for Siri. 

I believe that is c4s intent

[Cyknight]

41 minutes ago, Gene said:

I'm glad that when I built my house I did Lutron lighting.

As before (in other thread) - just because you used a third party lighting (or, for that matter, any 3rd party alternative device), doesn't mean it'll work or work well with X4.

I'm not saying it will not - but this is an early announcement (there's not even a beta yet as per their statement) and doesn't even TALK about what may be required to make 3rd party devices work in X4.

I'm still not convinced it's Z3 that is the issue with gen 1/2 lighting, as it would simply be all to easy to create a "legacy lighting hub" that runs a compatible ZigBee. It's going to have something to do with the new interface or a new scene handling if I had to guess at this point. If my guess is right, it COULD have an effect on far more than just their own lighting.

As I'm putting this down, I also wonder if they have little choice  but to start excluding them due to inability of those older devices to comply with IoT security standards/enforcement coming down the line. Similarly, that could also affect other devices in major way - though Lutron may not be (if so, they'd be shutting down those systems themselves from future updates as well)

A MAJOR update can easily include new requirements for drivers, new security requirements for communication, interface and push/call commands and more.

 

All in all, there's limited info out there, and a lot of speculation.

 

[Cyknight]

1 hour ago, Topspin14m said:

Do you guys really use the OSD?  I've never really found a great use case for it

It's personal preference, as well as being great for guest setups (you don't want every possible guest to have app access to your house - let alone something like a BnB or hotel setup)

That said, the 'controller behind every TV' thing is mostly unneeded - at least in traditional distributed setups.

@South Africa C4 user - when your builder did the upgrade from HC250's (and arguably when they did the original install) it would have worked just as well to use one (or two) distributed onscreens in almost ALL scenarios - maybe one or two local controllers for ZigBee coverage) - and a heck of a lot cheaper TWICE for you now. At least push them for the third time you have to do it.

 

We've done a considerable number of upgrades for people to OS3 from OS2 just this past year -takeovers or existing clients that were already takeovers- that had the 'box per TV' setup and it's a lot more cost effective to even share a local controller or two with another low use device on a small HDMI switch (if you don't have enough inputs available) (example, OSD and a camera recorder, or a guest cable/streaming box) and repurpose the network cable for IR, IP control or if needed put a Z2IO in instead.

Lot cheaper to do, and yes they're (at least controller wise, I think some may have older lighting still, some had 3rd party, some didn't have lighting at all, and some upgraded their devices as part of a larger scale upgrade anyway) ready to go to X4.

[Alt]

10 minutes ago, Cyknight said:

As before (in other thread) - just because you used a third party lighting (or, for that matter, any 3rd party alternative device), doesn't mean it'll work or work well with X4.

I'm not saying it will not - but this is an early announcement (there's not even a beta yet as per their statement) and doesn't even TALK about what may be required to make 3rd party devices work in X4.

I'm still not convinced it's Z3 that is the issue with gen 1/2 lighting, as it would simply be all to easy to create a "legacy lighting hub" that runs a compatible ZigBee. It's going to have something to do with the new interface or a new scene handling if I had to guess at this point. If my guess is right, it COULD have an effect on far more than just their own lighting.

As I'm putting this down, I also wonder if they have little choice  but to start excluding them due to inability of those older devices to comply with IoT security standards/enforcement coming down the line. Similarly, that could also affect other devices in major way - though Lutron may not be (if so, they'd be shutting down those systems themselves from future updates as well)

A MAJOR update can easily include new requirements for drivers, new security requirements for communication, interface and push/call commands and more.

 

All in all, there's limited info out there, and a lot of speculation.

 

I'm curious too. To add to the speculation, it seems the initial x4 releases will be running 2) version of Zigbee.  1 for the current Zigbee Pro for SR260 etc. & 1 for Zigbee 3.0  If they allow Zigbee pro for SR260 etc why not gen1/gen2 lighting.. must be something you elude to regrading security or scene handling I guess time will tell...

I am most interested to find out if Gen 3 lighting is able to flash to Zigbee 3.0!

[Cyknight]

1 minute ago, Alt said:

must be something you elude to regrading security

I'm fully admitting I just sort of stumbled on that idea, but there is a big new Cyber Reliance Act to be signed in the EU: I think that one REQUIRES manufactureres to have safety measures in place for any device that directly or indirectly connects tot he internet - or they can't sell their products.

While that isn't in force yet, and there's probably loopholes for EXISTING devices, it likely closes that loophole the moment there's any major software update, let alone new hardware involved.

US and other countries are likely to follow with similar rules.
Can't help but wonder if this is a pre-emptive step. Get everything on X4 'now' - then drop the items that can't meet the standard before it becomes a problem (in other words, they can honestly say they no longer allow devices that aren't to 'code' in new updates or installations.

Again - PURE speculation on my part on this

[Cyknight]

9 minutes ago, Alt said:

To add to the speculation, it seems the initial x4 releases will be running 2) version of Zigbee.  1 for the current Zigbee Pro for SR260 etc. & 1 for Zigbee 3.0

technically, this is already in existence now in that there's the C4 stack OR a core can run 'standard' Z3 for 3rd party devices.

[Cyknight]

9 hours ago, ILoveControl said:

you dont get those indestructible iPad type covers for kids for a T3/4

Now though I was surprised there's actually a few brands out there that make protective screen covers, including privacy style, for T4's and Halo remotes.

[eggzlot]

10 hours ago, South Africa C4 user said:

Mine is used in guest rooms and General TV rooms (never on our bedroom TV).  Guests like the old red button on the remote and I have a keypad button which says watch and I tend to have that programmed to turn on the TV, turn off the lights and go to the watch screen on the OSD.  Guests tend to find that an easier way to choose movies, go to satellite or go to Apple TV than using the watch button.

So I agree, guest room.  Though most w C4 are upper middle class and above, only very few installs have multiple guest rooms that are used so frequently that would need to update multiple devices behind a TV.  And to that market, the few grand won’t be a big deal breaker.

Heck I have 2 guest rooms, one has.a c4 connected TV to my matrix, and guests never used it.  We turned another room into a guest room to have 2 guest rooms, and we don’t even have a TV in there because no one used the TV in the other room and it was going to be rough pulling Ethernet up there to put it on my matrix so why bother.  Almost everyone staying with us as a phone/tablet and can entertain themselves without our TVs.  Grant it, I’m not putting them up in a separate pool house/cabana    There are TVs for them to watch in the living room and basement too

[eggzlot]

10 hours ago, South Africa C4 user said:

Mine is used in guest rooms and General TV rooms (never on our bedroom TV).  Guests like the old red button on the remote and I have a keypad button which says watch and I tend to have that programmed to turn on the TV, turn off the lights and go to the watch screen on the OSD.  Guests tend to find that an easier way to choose movies, go to satellite or go to Apple TV than using the watch button.

So I agree, guest room.  Though most w C4 are upper middle class and above, only very few installs have multiple guest rooms that are used so frequently that would need to update multiple devices behind a TV.  And to that market, the few grand won’t be a big deal breaker.

Heck I have 2 guest rooms, one has.a c4 connected TV to my matrix, and guests never used it.  We turned another room into a guest room to have 2 guest rooms, and we don’t even have a TV in there because no one used the TV in the other room and it was going to be rough pulling Ethernet up there to put it on my matrix so why bother.  Almost everyone staying with us as a phone/tablet and can entertain themselves without our TVs.  Grant it, I’m not putting them up in a separate pool house/cabana    There are TVs for them to watch in the living room and basement too

[Topspin14m]

1 hour ago, msgreenf said:

I believe that is c4s intent

Makes sense, but I think it also means that you could do a minimal C4 buildout (a primary theater room with remote) and have everything else just in Homekit.  Then use Homekit pretty much exclusively.

[WhyPhy]

Control4 needs to tread lightly around how much they are going to restrict end-users from their systems. Right-to-repair legislation has had major implications for smartphones and heavy equipment. I can imagine a sensationalist worst-case headline complaining about having to pay hundreds of dollars to get a light switch working again. 

[South Africa C4 user]

2 hours ago, Cyknight said:

when your builder did the upgrade from HC250's (and arguably when they did the original install) it would have worked just as well to use one (or two) distributed onscreens in almost ALL scenarios - maybe one or two local controllers for ZigBee coverage) - and a heck of a lot cheaper TWICE for you now. At least push them for the third time you have to do it.

Thanks @Cyknight - I think I will follow this suggestion this time round! I have a 10x10 matrix at one house with plenty of inputs spare and an 8x8 at the other house so it definitely makes sense. If X4 has a go to room command (I always hoped the navigation agent would bring this in and while there are drivers out there that do this, none that I know of work on the Core series) then 2 Core1s into the matrix would be enough for 7 or 8 TVs…

[Control4Savant]

5 hours ago, WhyPhy said:

Control4 needs to tread lightly around how much they are going to restrict end-users from their systems. Right-to-repair legislation has had major implications for smartphones and heavy equipment. I can imagine a sensationalist worst-case headline complaining about having to pay hundreds of dollars to get a light switch working again. 

That doesnt apply here. People need to stop purchasing professional managed technology if they dont want a professional doing the work. Full stop. 

[WhyPhy]

17 minutes ago, Control4Savant said:

That doesnt apply here. People need to stop purchasing professional managed technology if they dont want a professional doing the work. Full stop. 

I agree with you to some extent, but some professionals are much less professional than others. They can hold clients hostage and some markets don’t have many local alternatives. And new owners of homes with existing systems didn’t have the ability to choose. 
 

But it doesn’t really matter what we think because the regulators are the ones who set the laws. It’s probably just a matter of time before right to repair expands to adjacent industries. And having to conform one state’s regulations typically becomes the 50-state approach for most companies. 

And the reality is that the vast majority of Control4 customers don’t have the time or expertise to learn a complex program like Composer. So likely the actual impact of any such regulations would be negligible. 

[ekohn00]

8 hours ago, Cyknight said:

I'm fully admitting I just sort of stumbled on that idea, but there is a big new Cyber Reliance Act to be signed in the EU: I think that one REQUIRES manufactureres to have safety measures in place for any device that directly or indirectly connects tot he internet - or they can't sell their products.

While that isn't in force yet, and there's probably loopholes for EXISTING devices, it likely closes that loophole the moment there's any major software update, let alone new hardware involved.

US and other countries are likely to follow with similar rules.
Can't help but wonder if this is a pre-emptive step. Get everything on X4 'now' - then drop the items that can't meet the standard before it becomes a problem (in other words, they can honestly say they no longer allow devices that aren't to 'code' in new updates or installations.

Again - PURE speculation on my part on this

Wouldn't it be the controller that speaks to the internet, not the switches?

[Neo1738]

3 hours ago, ekohn00 said:

Wouldn't it be the controller that speaks to the internet, not the switches?

Well if someone were close Zigbee is just a wifi signal they could get unwanted access that way. These devices talk to the controller which talks to the internet thus they are a device that INdirectly talks to the internet. This being said it's low power very short range other than multi dwelling units (apartments) this likely isn't an issue but that is where security comes in. 

[pdapice]

there is also the obvious answer here: they did it for the money.