Andrew luecke Posted September 9 Share Posted September 9 57 minutes ago, Popolou said: Exciting, but surely Marketing could have given it another name so as not to confuse their UI with the long-established automation tech, X10. There is actually a good reason they didn't call it os4... And I guess they couldn't call it control4 4 14 hours ago, zaphod said: This is one of my pet peeves. If I want to buy a $20 outlet switch it sucks to have to pay $100 for a driver to get it to work in C4. I understand that folks writing the drivers need to get paid, but it would be nice if the device maker or C4 paid for the driver. This is one of the nice things with Home Assistant, you can find drivers for almost anything and they are free. There are lots of manufacturer sponsored drivers which are free with full support (if you check the chowmain website, you'll notice lots of free ones). Support consumes a lot of the cost Control4 also has a massive database of free drivers for installers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ekohn00 Posted September 9 Share Posted September 9 1 hour ago, msgreenf said: I don't think most consumers remember x10. X4 as in experience 4 I remember X10…. I guess X4 to show integration with OS X/Apple Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAV Posted September 9 Share Posted September 9 15 hours ago, zaphod said: This is one of my pet peeves. If I want to buy a $20 outlet switch it sucks to have to pay $100 for a driver to get it to work in C4. I understand that folks writing the drivers need to get paid, but it would be nice if the device maker or C4 paid for the driver. This is one of the nice things with Home Assistant, you can find drivers for almost anything and they are free. As Andrew mentioned, support. It's one thing to release a free driver, even code for others to mod, kudos. Hobbiest love that stuff, and take pride and ego in making it work for themselves, look what I did. It's another to support it to thousands of installers, many of which get confused at making connections in Composer. chopedogg88 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAV Posted September 9 Share Posted September 9 43 minutes ago, Andrew luecke said: There is actually a good reason they didn't call it os4... And I guess they couldn't call it control4 4 Could have gone with Connect 4, as you need the connect service and it's the 4th OS. Oh, wait, never mind. chopedogg88, Dueport, Popolou and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chopedogg88 Posted September 9 Share Posted September 9 6 minutes ago, RAV said: As Andrew mentioned, support. It's one thing to release a free driver, even code for others to mod, kudos. Hobbiest love that stuff, and take pride and ego in making it work for themselves, look what I did. It's another to support it to thousands of installers, many of which get confused at making connections in Composer. This. And I would add... Many hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of end users, who will freak out and call their installer on a Saturday night if some minor thing (or major thing as they perceive it) stops working such as voice control of their lights...hopefully which are on the walls in the room so could be manually controlled, vs having to find them in a hidden crawlspace/attic/etc. msgreenf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popolou Posted September 9 Share Posted September 9 47 minutes ago, Andrew luecke said: There is actually a good reason they didn't call it os4... Goodness, OS/4 is even older than X10 (early 70's?). I remember that... 42 minutes ago, ekohn00 said: I guess X4 to show integration with OS X/Apple Me thinks it's the meta these tech companies are hung on like the old days of iSomething. Less style more substance...Control4 Quattro? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnGordon Posted September 9 Share Posted September 9 OS4 was already taken, so they had to go with X4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaphod Posted September 9 Author Share Posted September 9 2 hours ago, RAV said: As Andrew mentioned, support. It's one thing to release a free driver, even code for others to mod, kudos. Hobbiest love that stuff, and take pride and ego in making it work for themselves, look what I did. It's another to support it to thousands of installers, many of which get confused at making connections in Composer. Yes but why can't C4 or the manufacturer can't provide the driver? The Govee and Kasa(aka TP-Link) outlet switches are an example - these are very popular and come up at the top on Amazon when you search for smart outlet switch. You can get these for as low as $10/switch, but then you have to buy the C4 driver for about $90 to integrate them into C4. And if you like one type of switch from Govee for one purpose and another type from Kasa for another purpose then you have to buy both. Do you have to buy drivers with Matter or HomeKit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAV Posted September 9 Share Posted September 9 23 minutes ago, zaphod said: Yes but why can't C4 or the manufacturer can't provide the driver? The Govee and Kasa(aka TP-Link) outlet switches are an example - these are very popular and come up at the top on Amazon when you search for smart outlet switch. You can get these for as low as $10/switch, but then you have to buy the C4 driver for about $90 to integrate them into C4. And if you like one type of switch from Govee for one purpose and another type from Kasa for another purpose then you have to buy both. Do you have to buy drivers with Matter or HomeKit? So the first Kasa you buy for $10 plus the driver is STILL $10 less than 1 Control4 unit. The second, third, fourth.... are $10 EACH! That's some good math. Pick one of the main three (Kasa, Govee, Shelly), and support their development! Without a third party store, and the incentive of money attached, the sandbox of third party drivers would be crazy small. Without a third party store, and programmers learning on paid, the number of vendors paying one of them to develop free drivers, would be crazy small. And, without 3rd party programmers to write drivers for vendors to give away, then many of them wouldn't pursue a driver at all. Edit Why doesn't Control4 write them? their not going to cannibalize their own product sales, oh, and Support! Why doesn't Kasa? We're making a $1 a plug, no free sauces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBZICON Posted September 9 Share Posted September 9 11 hours ago, Gary Leeds UK said: Looks to me that the new owner of Control4 is trying to gear up a sale to Apple - Or trying and get Apple Interested Apple is not interested in ADI/SNAP, whereas ADI is interested in driving additional revenue by going all in now with Apple HomeKit ecosystem. There hasn’t been any mention of an upcoming refreshed HomePod from the Apple blog sites for 2024. Look for 2025 to be when the HomePod mini is the AI entry into the Control4 ecosystem. This halted me adding a Josh.ai to my C4 system as I’ll watch how this all plays out in the next 9 months. Dueport and msgreenf 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgreenf Posted September 9 Share Posted September 9 49 minutes ago, zaphod said: Yes but why can't C4 or the manufacturer can't provide the driver? The Govee and Kasa(aka TP-Link) outlet switches are an example - these are very popular and come up at the top on Amazon when you search for smart outlet switch. You can get these for as low as $10/switch, but then you have to buy the C4 driver for about $90 to integrate them into C4. And if you like one type of switch from Govee for one purpose and another type from Kasa for another purpose then you have to buy both. Do you have to buy drivers with Matter or HomeKit? $$$ and market. They have no reason to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAV Posted September 9 Share Posted September 9 Updated Information from Control4 Dealer Forum: OS3 has an update planned for soon, then limited past that, x4 will be focus for new stuff Planning on a new Xperience (x) each year - wanting to make it easier for customers to know how up to date they are, or out of date as the case may be. Homekit sounding very much as C4 exposed into Homekit, (but not Homekit devices into C4). Allowing Apple Ecosystem to control a Control4 home for appletv, carplay siri, (Siri on Halo), watch, shortcuts, etc. Composer stays, but some integrations will be through OVRC (as Luma bridge is done) SpencerT and IBZICON 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgreenf Posted September 9 Share Posted September 9 As I said. Homekit integration is push. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Leeds UK Posted September 10 Share Posted September 10 Totally agree about Apple are not interested in ADI/SNAP However they will be interested in a Black box that lets your AV integrate into HomeKit and works with Siri Lets wait and see Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dblessing Posted September 10 Share Posted September 10 On 9/8/2024 at 5:05 PM, zaphod said: This is one of my pet peeves. If I want to buy a $20 outlet switch it sucks to have to pay $100 for a driver to get it to work in C4. I understand that folks writing the drivers need to get paid, but it would be nice if the device maker or C4 paid for the driver. This is one of the nice things with Home Assistant, you can find drivers for almost anything and they are free. Buying a driver for one outlet definitely feels expensive. Also consider the alternative. If a user has 50 outlets the driver dev still only gets $100. Not only that, it’s $100 one-time even if functionality is added or updates needed. I’m not sure what the answer is but the driver ecosystem/model could use some change. ChzBurger 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darin, PM C4 CX Platform Posted September 10 Share Posted September 10 On 9/6/2024 at 6:41 AM, ekohn00 said: never mind...asked before I finished the thread.... SO if we have all LDZ and KPs, will there be any path to upgrade? I have a lot of Gen 1 it looks like.....ugh This was posted by someone else in a different thread, but it is an easy way to identify Gen 3 devices. LDZ, LSZ, DIM1, KP6, etc are all G1/G2 APD, FPD, KD, KC, TV are all G3 Around the launch of X4 there will be equipment upgrade promotions for dealers to offer, but details are still being worked out so nothing exact I can share at this time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darin, PM C4 CX Platform Posted September 10 Share Posted September 10 On 9/5/2024 at 10:50 PM, Kaas Mayer said: Will there be a deepdive into x4? Right now i saw just some small Images of it. Yes, as we get close to launch we'll have more deep dives, trainings, and even early access for all Control4 dealers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted September 10 Share Posted September 10 On 9/9/2024 at 10:09 AM, zaphod said: Do you have to buy drivers with Matter or HomeKit? HomeKit requires a security chip, with cost built into the device. So yes, manufacturers will ensure the drivers are available and 'eat' the cost (meaning, include it in their device cost) Matter is just a way to talk to things: so whether or not there is a paid driver for Matter/Thread (assuming it's actually going to get truly used at tome point in time) on any platform will depend on the platform to some degree at least. Basic drivers, not likely (just like C4 now integrates most basic Zwave lights etc, and the move to ZigBee3 and a possible more open availability there) - more advanced features likely need specialized drivers - which may well be done for a fee by 3rd party developers. Don't make the mistake of thinking that a 'free' driver isn't costing you: if C4 needs to make every single driver, it would just mean C4 would cost more. If the manufacturer pays to make the driver and/or maintain it - you really believe they aren't factoring that sort of thing into their pricing? I don't mean that Hunter Douglas all of a sudden charges more because they pay to have a Control4 driver, but you know they'll have factored the cost of integration into systems - be it Control4, Nice(Elan), Savant, Crestron or indeed even HomeKit - into their pricing. chopedogg88 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darin, PM C4 CX Platform Posted September 10 Share Posted September 10 On 9/6/2024 at 7:09 AM, Cyknight said: I would say, based on info, that it's at best UNCLEAR how far at least EA controllers will be supported after the initial x4 version. Basically the on-screen will likely die completely after the initial version - it sort of sounds like EA controllers may be completely out after that, but that part is not 100% clear to me. So saying EA are supported in X4 is perhaps a bit misleading - though they will be supported 'as is' and in a limited fashion in the first build. EA as a controller will be fully supported and receive X4 updates, but the EA-OSD (TV/On-screen experience) will be removed after the initial release of X4 (4.0.0). Limited support for EA-OSD, Gen 1/2 lighting devices, and T3 touchscreens are available in 4.0.0 to assist with 2.x to 4.x upgrade discussions. X4 (4.0.0) Continued Support Core Controller + Core-OSD EA Controller CA Controller T4 Touchscreen Limited Support EA-OSD with OS 3 UI T3 Touchscreen with OS 3 UI Gen 1 & 2 lighting devices (LDZ, LSZ, DIM1, KP6, etc) X4 (4.1.0) Continued Support Core Controller + Core-OSD EA Controller CA Controller T4 Touchscreen No Support (Must be replaced/removed from project to upgrade) EA-OSD with OS 3 UI T3 Touch Screen with OS 3 UI Gen 1 & 2 lighting devices (LDZ, LSZ, DIM1, KP6, etc) IBZICON, BY96, Rob21 and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darin, PM C4 CX Platform Posted September 10 Share Posted September 10 On 9/6/2024 at 2:43 PM, Topspin14m said: Kind of the cruddy part of many of these issues is that the lesson is sometimes don’t buy the C4 product even if you have C4-get something made by someone else. I.e. those people with iPads on their walls have no problem. But it is what it is. I agree they are probably too low res for this to work well. Would be good if they could offer some kind of discount program to help out people who were loyal and bought their hardware. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk I can understand why it might feel that way, but the T3 touchscreen was first released back in Feb 2015 and is only going EOL in mid-late 2025 (10-11 years). The iPad's Control4 mobile app support also goes EOL as well, today to run the current iOS app you need to be on iOS 16. This would mean that you need to have an iPad 5th gen (2017 or newer) and by the time X4 releases in 2025 that will move to devices that can run iOS 17 or above due to Apple's app requirements enforced with the full roll-out of iOS 18. We do what we can to support all devices as long as possible, but as hardware and software requirements evolve and user needs change we eventually hit a point where we need to cut them off to be able to deliver new functionality and experiences. We support both 1st party and 3rd party devices though, so it is entirely your choice what works best for your system or your customers. Rob21 and Dueport 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob21 Posted September 10 Share Posted September 10 7 minutes ago, Darin, PM C4 CX Platform said: I can understand why it might feel that way, but the T3 touchscreen was first released back in Feb 2015 and is only going EOL in mid-late 2025 (10-11 years). The iPad's Control4 mobile app support also goes EOL as well, today to run the current iOS app you need to be on iOS 16. This would mean that you need to have an iPad 5th gen (2017 or newer) and by the time X4 releases in 2015 that will move to devices that can run iOS 17 or above due to Apple's app requirements enforced with the full roll-out of iOS 18. We do what we can to support all devices as long as possible, but as hardware and software requirements evolve and user needs change we eventually hit a point where we need to cut them off to be able to deliver new functionality and experiences. We support both 1st party and 3rd party devices though, so it is entirely your choice what works best for your system or your customers. This is very cool. I'm admittedly a fan boy but I never realized this about T3 vs iPad. It's unfortunate that there might not be a way forward for gen1/gen2 lighting but with that aside I do feel like C4 does a great job supporting their products over the long term (of course we all hope for more of this). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted September 10 Share Posted September 10 6 minutes ago, Darin, PM C4 CX Platform said: but the T3 touchscreen was first released back in Feb 2015 6 minutes ago, Darin, PM C4 CX Platform said: you need to have an iPad 5th gen (2017 or newer) While I understand it, indeed have brought C4 relatively long life cycle for hardware up several times - there is one big difference with C4's own devices and an iPad or Google Tablet: it's a dedicated device with only ONE function: it SHOULD be supported far longer than something like an iPad. As such the fact that there's ONLY a two year difference between support for T3 and end 4th gen ipads ending is NOT a favourable comparison. Adding that a brand new 10" iPad starts at less than 1/3 of a Control4 screen, it's actually a fairly poor value for lifespan comparison. Again, I GET why T3's are ending - but this merely underscores why it's now difficult to sell the C4 screens. We have clients that have evolved with C4 for well over that decade and they're already had to deal with going to T3-(which was a huge jump in price- from previous ones, in plenty of cases T3 was already their second screen update. Understand that I LOVE how well T4 screens operate, even compared to a dedicated iPad pro + app - but it's a hard sell at the price point. Neo1738, Darin, PM C4 CX Platform and BY96 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therockhr Posted September 10 Share Posted September 10 23 minutes ago, Darin, PM C4 CX Platform said: We do what we can to support all devices as long as possible, but as hardware and software requirements evolve and user needs change we eventually hit a point where we need to cut them off to be able to deliver new functionality and experiences. We support both 1st party and 3rd party devices though, so it is entirely your choice what works best for your system or your customers. Thanks for the insight. Can you talk about why gen1/2 lighting is not going to be supported moving forward? I would assume it is because of the move to Zigbee 3.0 as someone mentioned and that those devices couldnt support that stack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darin, PM C4 CX Platform Posted September 10 Share Posted September 10 On 9/7/2024 at 12:43 PM, GregCAMS said: thanks for that clarification! Is the beta going to be open to end users or dealers only? In going to the QR code it didn't have questions for end users (realize it's a dealer based show but customer input for users would be nice). The beta mentioned for October is for the beta dealers that are always testing the latest changes under NDA. However, we are introducing a new phase of testing with Early Access prior to launch that customer is able to join, but the decision is up to your dealer since they are servicing & supporting the customer's system. Early Access for X4 is targeted for early Q1 2025. Andrew luecke 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregCAMS Posted September 10 Share Posted September 10 2 minutes ago, Darin, PM C4 CX Platform said: The beta mentioned for October is for the beta dealers that are always testing the latest changes under NDA. However, we are introducing a new phase of testing with Early Access prior to launch that customer is able to join, but the decision is up to your dealer since they are servicing & supporting the customer's system. Early Access for X4 is targeted for early Q1 2025. I just got the following e-mail and wanted to see if anyone else did? Wasn't sure if it was spam as there was not a grammar check to say they want contribution for a feedback panel in 'July' on an e-mail from the person at the bottom signature this morning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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