Control4 X4

[Cyknight]

3 hours ago, therockhr said:

but if there was ever a time for a customer who was on the fence about switching

Sure, but that is true of every major overhaul requirement on every system in any industry.

One could easily argue that if a tech company was too afraid to move forward with major overhaul that may cause limitations, inconvenience and/or cost to previous buyers of their wares, tech would be at a stalemate - or perhaps more likely, they'll actually lose MORE by not doing it or doing it too late. (BlackBerry anyone?)

[RAV]

4 hours ago, therockhr said:

Thats true it would be cheaper but if there was ever a time for a customer who was on the fence about switching to Savant or Josh.ai then the time to do that would be when they have to replace their lighting.

I think many who do choose to upgrade will look into Lutron Lighting replacement rather than single eco system, to keep their options more open for the future.
I don't expect an "abandon ship!", more of a be sure the lifeboats are prepped.
 

[msgreenf]

Maybe some iPhone 6 users will move to Android

[Cyknight]

2 hours ago, RAV said:

I think many who do choose to upgrade will look into Lutron Lighting replacement

I think you're wrong. I think MOST end users that choose to do an upgrade to go to X4 will end up doing what is recommended by their respective dealer, possible by by a second opinion.

Those one here as has been stated before are NOT representative of the 'common' C4 user.

That's not a knock on anyone on here, it's a simple observation. The amount of clients per dealer on here is less than 5%, indeed it wouldn't surprise me that it's less than 1%.

Pretty sure it's less than 1% for me, and that isn't even taking into account that most DEALERS aren't even on here.

More importantly, the end-users on here are not representative even as a sample, as simply being on here makes you far more involved with your system than those that are not. Heck that even goes for the lurkers on here, let alone those actively involving them in any discussions.

 

I don't LIKE that gen 1/2 is being removed in the future.

No-one LIKES paying a bunch of money to replace something that they didn't expect to.

Pretty sure most of my clients that has over 50 lighting devices drive cars that they change regularly that cost them far more than it'll be to replace 50 lighting devices.

Most if not all of those that have over a 100? same for 100 lights.

Pretty sure those that are over $200 have at least one vehicle in their possession worth more than it would cost to take every part of the system out and replace every single piece, including the TVs.

That doesn't mean they'll like or even decide to upgrade, let alone to what - but let's keep things in perspective.

Let's say C4's upgrade discount for lighting is going to be USD 175 each on average (and no I have ZERO inside info on the discounts they'll have other than we're told there will be one). Let's add the (remember it's a direct swap) install cost at 5 lights in an hour at USD 125. That'll be USD 200 per light. There's some reprogramming labour, so how about we add and extra  USD 50 just for giggles and assumption the client wants to make some major changes (for those unaware, for dealers, swapping an old style light for a current gen3 light is actually a built-in feature, including keypads, that allaos the new device to copy all programming, bindings and scene inclusions) Now we're at USD 250

No multiply that by 200 lights. That's a pretty good number of lights. So after what should be at least 12 years of being installed (that's ASSUMING they want x4.1 the moment it comes out), my 200 lighting device client (so likely to be in my top paying clientele group) is paying the grand prize of 200*250= 50.000.

Looking at 2024 suggested retail prices in the US that's an average kit Audi A4 I believe, low to mid range kit for a brand new 1/2 ton pick up truck or base model prices for Mercedes and BMW coupes.

Make of that comparison what you will from your own perspective, but also think about the average luxury home in your area, and think on what their owners drive.

 

Those of you on here that are true end-users and have 100+ lighting devices, please feel free to post when you last bought a brand new car, and what the retail price of that car was

And yes I get that I'm comparing US prices vs US prices here and the comparison isn't accurate for all markets, but while electronics are cheap in the US, so are vehicles.

Oh and yes you can argue that you wouldn't normally expect to replace the switches in a non-smart home and you would replace cars as they age, then again I could argue back that a luxury vehicle is just that, a luxury (more so if you buy them brand new), so is smart lighting.

 

 

[RAV]

7 minutes ago, Cyknight said:

I think you're wrong. I think MOST end users that choose to do an upgrade to go to X4 will end up doing what is recommended by their respective dealer, possible by by a second opinion.

-shortened

I follow your point.
But if I'm upset at my BMW performance for what I spent, I'm not likely to buy in again.
And since many dealers sell both, they'll switch the client to an Audi (Lutron) and provide the same end result without the bad karma.

Of course if the new BMW has some whizbang native feature that the Audi doesn't, then it's all moot anyways. We'll see.

[msgreenf]

But IDK that they will..that's the thing...dealers like things all one eco system to make it easier to support and less stressful.  Folks on this forum like to mix and match....that is NOT something most dealers do.  

[therockhr]

21 minutes ago, msgreenf said:

Maybe some iPhone 6 users will move to Android

You are always making comparisons instead of just talking about the actual issue at hand. But yeah, if someone was an iPhone user and they couldnt upgrade their iphone anymore they may move to Android and that is a lost customer who may have subscribed to apple services and bought apps in the app store. 

The issue is that there are going to be some long time c4 users who have gen1/2 lighting who have steadily upgraded their controllers and other c4 products over the years who are going to have their dealer come to them and tell them that if they want to be on the latest version they cant use their lighting. That's going to be a hard conversation to have.

And if you are that customer, you are probably going to just say screw it and stay on that version as long as you can and when it finally gets to a point where something has to be done i would guess that control4 may not be the first option they go with when picking a new system (either right or wrong).

[msgreenf]

Just now, therockhr said:

The issue is that there are going to be some long time c4 users who have gen1/2 lighting who have steadily upgraded their controllers and other c4 products over the years who are going to have their dealer come to them and tell them that if they want to be on the latest version they cant use their lighting. That's going to be a hard conversation to have.

let's focus on what's and who's in front of us.  Let's not talk about hypothetical scenarios.  We also don't know (cause they aren't out yet) what the upgrade programs will look like....

[therockhr]

1 minute ago, msgreenf said:

let's focus on what's and who's in front of us.  Let's not talk about hypothetical scenarios.  We also don't know (cause they aren't out yet) what the upgrade programs will look like....

yeah lets talk about iphones and bmw's instead of almost for sure scenarios that will occur.

And yeah, I have said in another post that they probably have seen the data and its just not enough customers out there with that lighting to continue bringing it along with a hub or something. I would also guess that they would almost practically give away the lighting hardware if the dealer thought the customer would move to another control platform (i'm totally guessing but i doubt c4 wants to lose any customer).

[msgreenf]

1 minute ago, therockhr said:

I would also guess that they would almost practically give away the lighting hardware if the dealer thought the customer would move to another control platform (i'm totally guessing but i doubt c4 wants to lose any customer).

Every customer isn't worth keeping...we have all seen that in our business.  I know I have walked away from customers that weren't compatible with me.  

As for C4's data - I'm sure they have it.  IDK it and can't speak to it.  

They have said there would be update deals; but haven't released the details yet.

 

[Cyknight]

3 minutes ago, RAV said:

But if I'm upset at my BMW performance for what I spent

But are you upset about it replacing it after 15 years and 150k or more miles of working and working well? If it still works, you don't have to. Same with your C4 system for now.

At least until the next main controller breaks. Are you going to try and find a rebuilt engine for your BMW, or are you going to get a new one - or are you too upset with BMW that an engine fails after 20 years and 250k miles?

Or will you be upset with BMW because after 15 years you'd really like to have a car that connects to your current phone for music and nav, self parking, self steering, and whatever else the new car has but they're not updating your car's computer to be able to do all that for you?

Of course comparing a car to a home install is a bit silly, and I'm using the comparison in no small part because it's a bit silly (but not all that silly is it).

 

Look I get it, I truly do - I'm just trying to keep everyone's perspective in line a bit here.

Some are crying bloody murder about something that is perhaps a little less of a big deal than it may seem at first appearance even within one's own narrow point of view (your own system and cost) - let alone in the larger view and scale of things.

Not saying you're all wrong about not being happy about it, indeed letting Control4 know you're not happy about it, or that you can't vent your frustration about it here. There's a little bit of playing the devil's advocate here at least.

 

But perhaps comparing your existing lighting devices of 15 years ago with a car isn't quite all that more silly than comparing your smart lighting with having gone with old fashioned toggle switches everywhere either. You NEED lighting, you likely NEED a car - but you don't NEED smart lighting any more than you NEED that car to be a Mercedes, Jaguar, let alone a Lamborghini (or KoenigsEgg) - let alone you don't NEED the latest version of a control system and more than that you NEED to buy the latest version of whatever above luxury or super car is your poison.

 

Also keep in mind, it's not as if the system you just updated this year (but kept the old lighting) is going to stop working: you just can't get the latest version 2 years from now (but remember, you can still get next year!). At SOME point down the road, which could be another 5 years for all we know, perhaps even more, you may have to settle for getting a second hand controller instead of a brand new one to keep your lights the same. Another 5 years after that, yeah you may be cheaper to change your lighting, even if you care not one whit for upgraded interface as controllers that work are now so scarce they are super expensive so it may just be time to replace the lighting. 5 Years later, sure NOW they're all dead and your lighting, now 3 decades old, stops working (well sort of, the fancy parts of those lights stop working, but they'll still turn on and off like a basic switch)

For many of us on here, having the latest version is a 'thing' for sure. Be it because we have little choice (because it's our work!) or because we just want to (even if it's our work!). It's also just fun to have the newest features.

For most end-users that have gen1/2 to begin with the whole gen1/2 needing replacing ... well isn't going to be a thing at all for at what looks like many years to come.

[Time2Jet]

^This


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Cyknight]

50 minutes ago, therockhr said:

That's going to be a hard conversation to have.

Sure

51 minutes ago, therockhr said:

And if you are that customer, you are probably going to just say screw it and stay on that version as long as you can

Not so sure. If you've steadily updated to stay on top of things and you're a more 'common' type of client - looking at my own pool of them that I have that have done so (vs already not updating to begin with) - I'm not so sure that a 20k to 50k upgrade is so extravagant compared to replacing controllers and touchscreens over time, or moving to HDMI from component, or 4k from fullHD...

54 minutes ago, therockhr said:

i would guess that control4 may not be the first option they go with when picking a new system

And why not? No really. You just had a system that by that time worked just fine for 3 decades. So now you need to upgrade or replace. Or possibly you may be building a new house altogether.

Say I had a system that lasted for 25 years as is worked just fine though by the end I couldn't get the newest interface, and now I'm building a new house. Should I go with the last system that lasted for 25 years but it's latest version, or try something new and unknown?

[crash1977mtl]

4 hours ago, Cyknight said:

I think you're wrong. I think MOST end users that choose to do an upgrade to go to X4 will end up doing what is recommended by their respective dealer, possible by by a second opinion.

Those one here as has been stated before are NOT representative of the 'common' C4 user.

That's not a knock on anyone on here, it's a simple observation. The amount of clients per dealer on here is less than 5%, indeed it wouldn't surprise me that it's less than 1%.

Pretty sure it's less than 1% for me, and that isn't even taking into account that most DEALERS aren't even on here.

More importantly, the end-users on here are not representative even as a sample, as simply being on here makes you far more involved with your system than those that are not. Heck that even goes for the lurkers on here, let alone those actively involving them in any discussions.

 

I don't LIKE that gen 1/2 is being removed in the future.

No-one LIKES paying a bunch of money to replace something that they didn't expect to.

Pretty sure most of my clients that has over 50 lighting devices drive cars that they change regularly that cost them far more than it'll be to replace 50 lighting devices.

Most if not all of those that have over a 100? same for 100 lights.

Pretty sure those that are over $200 have at least one vehicle in their possession worth more than it would cost to take every part of the system out and replace every single piece, including the TVs.

That doesn't mean they'll like or even decide to upgrade, let alone to what - but let's keep things in perspective.

Let's say C4's upgrade discount for lighting is going to be USD 175 each on average (and no I have ZERO inside info on the discounts they'll have other than we're told there will be one). Let's add the (remember it's a direct swap) install cost at 5 lights in an hour at USD 125. That'll be USD 200 per light. There's some reprogramming labour, so how about we add and extra  USD 50 just for giggles and assumption the client wants to make some major changes (for those unaware, for dealers, swapping an old style light for a current gen3 light is actually a built-in feature, including keypads, that allaos the new device to copy all programming, bindings and scene inclusions) Now we're at USD 250

No multiply that by 200 lights. That's a pretty good number of lights. So after what should be at least 12 years of being installed (that's ASSUMING they want x4.1 the moment it comes out), my 200 lighting device client (so likely to be in my top paying clientele group) is paying the grand prize of 200*250= 50.000.

Looking at 2024 suggested retail prices in the US that's an average kit Audi A4 I believe, low to mid range kit for a brand new 1/2 ton pick up truck or base model prices for Mercedes and BMW coupes.

Make of that comparison what you will from your own perspective, but also think about the average luxury home in your area, and think on what their owners drive.

 

Those of you on here that are true end-users and have 100+ lighting devices, please feel free to post when you last bought a brand new car, and what the retail price of that car was

And yes I get that I'm comparing US prices vs US prices here and the comparison isn't accurate for all markets, but while electronics are cheap in the US, so are vehicles.

Oh and yes you can argue that you wouldn't normally expect to replace the switches in a non-smart home and you would replace cars as they age, then again I could argue back that a luxury vehicle is just that, a luxury (more so if you buy them brand new), so is smart lighting.

 

 

It's all about expectations. People expect to change cars, laptops, TV's etc somewhat regularly. Some other items like Stoves, fridges, etc, they would not be happy if they decided to upgrade their Wolfe oven and then their refrigerator stopped working.

There is zero expectation that people got into lighting thinking it had a shelf life that would suddenly not work anymore. Even though it's a piece of tech, it's still a light switch. And they can change their TV's, ovens, watches, cars, and the light switch would always work.

There is zero reason why C4 cannot provide some work around for this, it's just such a fundamental part of ones house, that to be forced to stay unsupported and left behind or pay 10's of thousands of dollars for ZERO incremental feature on the unit being replaced.

[msgreenf]

10 minutes ago, crash1977mtl said:

It's all about expectations. People expect to change cars, laptops, TV's etc somewhat regularly. Some other items like Stoves, fridges, etc, they would not be happy if they decided to upgrade their Wolfe oven and then their refrigerator stopped working.

There is zero expectation that people got into lighting thinking it had a shelf life that would suddenly not work anymore. Even though it's a piece of tech, it's still a light switch. And they can change their TV's, ovens, watches, cars, and the light switch would always work.

There is zero reason why C4 cannot provide some work around for this, it's just such a fundamental part of ones house, that to be forced to stay unsupported and left behind or pay 10's of thousands of dollars for ZERO incremental feature on the unit being replaced.

There's equally zero expectation that your 20-year-old lighting should get all the new features of a brand new product. So don't upgrade

[msgreenf]

No one is breaking what you have or stopping it from working. It's just not going to be upgradable to the latest features. Do you expect when you buy a piece of technology that you get upgrades for 20 years?

[eggzlot]

12 hours ago, therockhr said:

Thats true it would be cheaper but if there was ever a time for a customer who was on the fence about switching to Savant or Josh.ai then the time to do that would be when they have to replace their lighting.

True

as some one in sales I’ve run into times where programs need to be sunset.  It’s the nature of the beast and lots of data is reviewed to ensure minimal impact.  Could be said it’s more financially advantageous to stop supporting old tech and lose those customers to another platform vs supporting old hardware.  
 

I guess c4 feels someone sitting on gen 1/2 switches - for the majority- has no idea what OS3 is let alone x4

this forum is not representative of the c4 population I’d think.  
 

if my head has been in the sand for 15 years and someone tells me I need to replace everything I wouldn’t be shocked.  May not be happy.  But wouldn’t be shocked.  

[eggzlot]

5 hours ago, msgreenf said:

Maybe some iPhone 6 users will move to Android

I left android for iPhone like a decade ago because my Samsung or whoever was the manufacturer wouldn’t let me update while all other android phones did.  Mine was a top of the line 299 or 399 phone and stopped getting updates in less than 2 years.  

[ekohn00]

11 hours ago, msgreenf said:

 Do you expect when you buy a piece of technology that you get upgrades for 20 years?

Honestly of all the things in life you don't expect to ever upgrade.....light switches might be top of the list.

Right or Wrong, for whatever reason, it's a surprise.

Reality, as you all say, if new feature are worth it - change the light switches otherwise we can stay the status quo. 

[RAV]

15 hours ago, msgreenf said:

There's equally zero expectation that your 20-year-old lighting should get all the new features of a brand new product. So don't upgrade

That is exactly the point.

Don’t expect the lighting I have to do more than it does/did. Not expecting lighting to get new features.

But we can’t understand why less features lighting should keep the system from updating other features.

It’s early, but if all the other lighting system can work in x4, then so should gen1/2.

 

[Cyknight]

4 hours ago, RAV said:

But we can’t understand why less features lighting should keep the system from updating other features.

For one because you're not grasping the running cost involved in ensuring devices will keep working in new software.

I've no doubt there's a 'money' reason involved in this: but it's not a 'money grab as some have mentioned to get you to buy new lighting, it's not wasting money supporting something that is, sadly, past it's time now.

IF there is to be a whole new interface, and a whole new way of dealing with lighting, schedules and more that these devices cannot handle (and yes the same would go for any and all 3rd party lighting) - then that would mean a full secondary interface, control option, whatever it takes to keep them working 'somehow'. Development of that alone would be a huge cost - let alone testing it, or maintaining it down the road.

 

[Cyknight]

19 hours ago, crash1977mtl said:

There is zero expectation that people got into lighting thinking it had a shelf life that would suddenly not work anymore

The is zero reason to upgrade past the point where this happens. Don't go past x4 and your light switches happily keep on working.

That is apart from the fact that that expectation is wrong. Numerous 'smart' lighting options have come and gone. At best they'll work as a normal dimmer/switch now.

Oh wait, much like your existing C4 gen 1/2 lights will! YOUR LIGHTING DOESN'T STOP WORKING. It just doesn't have all the fancy control features it has now. Or at least you may lose those if you CHOOSE to upgrade and lose that function or, eventually, in an as of know UNKNOWN FUTURE.

Just because you don't expect something, doesn't mean that you shouldn't.

20 hours ago, crash1977mtl said:

There is zero reason why C4 cannot provide some work around for this, it's just such a fundamental part of ones house, that to be forced to stay unsupported and left behind or pay 10's of thousands of dollars for ZERO incremental feature on the unit being replaced.

1) There's plenty of reasons, not in the least the MILLIONS of dollars it would cost to do so

2) No-one is saying you're left behind unsupported, at least not at this time or for what appears to be a long time (as long as they've ALREADY existed potentially). Not getting upgrades and new features is NOT being unsupported.

3) You're assuming there is no incremental feature to the upgrade.

[Cyknight]

20 hours ago, crash1977mtl said:

they would not be happy if they decided to upgrade their Wolfe oven and then their refrigerator stopped working

And yet more and more appliance are getting 'smart features, not to mention the first ones lose all those smart features. Oh they'll do the basics still of course. Ans so will Control4 gen 1/2 lighting, just not as part of a larger C4 system.

[blub]

On 9/20/2024 at 10:00 PM, Cyknight said:

Those of you on here that are true end-users and have 100+ lighting devices, please feel free to post when you last bought a brand new car, and what the retail price of that car was

Well a car is being used and it degrades over time / has wear and tear and a new car comes with new features etc - lighting turns a light on and  off, there there no new features to the function as switch needs to fulfill and a light switch also doesn't degrade over time - so that comparison doesn't show anything besides the point that rich ppl can afford it anyway.

 

On 9/21/2024 at 2:30 AM, msgreenf said:

get all the new features of a brand new product

The product is a light switch/dimmer and it doesn't get new features, its function on/off/dim are the same, the light doesn't get any brighter... - as features/functions stay the same it should not be a reason to break update compatibility and as other lighting system will be compatible there is 0 reason C4s own system wont be compatible at least via a bridge or a second ZigBee hub running the old version.

And for that reason as others have said a light switch will be at the very top of a list for products where I would expect to keep them and not need to upgrade them.

 

14 hours ago, Cyknight said:

For one because you're not grasping the running cost involved in ensuring devices will keep working in new software.

I don see a huge cost there, 2nd controller with ZgBee hub and thats it - driver can stay the same on,off,dimm

 

I know C4 needs money to operate and they had 4sight and now madatory "Connect" to increase revenue but when they now drop light switches which are still working just fine I really have problems to drop 50 or 100k into that Control4 ecosystem - I buy Gen3 lights now, they have been out since 2017? and I can already prepare for new lights Gen4 in 2030 or so? - thats kinda hard to swallow

[msgreenf]

You bought a connected light switch that was dependent on a controller. The light switch will continue to operate independently, but due to updates to the controller which are optional, the light switch will no longer be able to be controlled by the controller. That's technology. Unfortunately. We've all experienced upgrades that we didn't think were fair. I don't know what else to tell you. I didn't make the idea of