Control4 X4

[zaphod]

I have some LED lights that do dim properly with Gen1.  But maybe they have a halogen or incandescent on the same circuit.

But doesn't this also apply to Gen1 switches and keypads, not just dimmers? 

[msgreenf]

18 minutes ago, zaphod said:

I have some LED lights that do dim properly with Gen1.  But maybe they have a halogen or incandescent on the same circuit.

But doesn't this also apply to Gen1 switches and keypads, not just dimmers? 

Gen 1 has the same chips regardless of model (keypad, dimmer, switch).  The switches work better with LEDs (but not always perfect).  Clearly the keypads wouldn't have an issue.

[IBZICON]

Which controllers have the Zigbee 3.0 chip sets? There has been nothing mentioned about the CA-1.  I assume the Core’s are supported with the 3.0 standard.  Core lite?

[Cyknight]

3 hours ago, blub said:

We did get C4 1.3.2 in 2006 and if my brain isn't mushed there was no lighting a that point and it came in 2 or so years later

Your brain is mushed.

[zaphod]

16 hours ago, msgreenf said:

Gen 1 has the same chips regardless of model (keypad, dimmer, switch).  The switches work better with LEDs (but not always perfect).  Clearly the keypads wouldn't have an issue.

Sorry - maybe I am interpreting this wrong but to me these sound like contradictory statements.  If Gen1 keypads have the same chipset as Gen1 dimmers then won't they have the same issue as Gen1 dimmers in terms of not working in the near future?

[msgreenf]

15 minutes ago, zaphod said:

Sorry - maybe I am interpreting this wrong but to me these sound like contradictory statements.  If Gen1 keypads have the same chipset as Gen1 dimmers then won't they have the same issue as Gen1 dimmers in terms of not working in the near future?

In terms of dimming w LED. What we were talking about 

[blub]

18 hours ago, msgreenf said:

That seems like an opinion vs a fact

U said that Gen 1/2 will not dim/work with LEDs properly - so if that is the case it is very likely that ppl who still have Gen1/2 in their house will not have LED lights as u said it wont' work properly - right?

Anyone upgrading to LED with Gen1/2 light would probably have switched to Gen3 if it doesn't work properly?

[blub]

15 hours ago, Cyknight said:

Your brain is mushed.

So lighting was there from day one?

[msgreenf]

22 minutes ago, blub said:

U said that Gen 1/2 will not dim/work with LEDs properly - so if that is the case it is very likely that ppl who still have Gen1/2 in their house will not have LED lights as u said it wont' work properly - right?

Anyone upgrading to LED with Gen1/2 light would probably have switched to Gen3 if it doesn't work properly?

Or they are having flickering and bad ramping and don't understand why 

[ekohn00]

2 hours ago, msgreenf said:

Or they are having flickering and bad ramping and don't understand why 

Or….  They found LED lighting that works.

[msgreenf]

7 minutes ago, ekohn00 said:

Or….  They found LED lighting that works.

I don't think that is possible. But maybe 

[zaphod]

When I said that I have LEDs that work - they come on and they go completely off.  They can somewhat dim, but not as well as halogen or incandescent.  Do they ramp up completely smoothly and work at lower levels?  I don't know and I don't care.

Maybe I am different but even where I have dimmers I have them come on at sunset in the main part of my house to 85% in a lighting scene and I turn them off at bedtime.  In other parts of the house I manually turn on the lights and I turn them on to 100% or 85% - I can't forget how I set up my lighting scenes a decade or so ago.   I rarely fiddle with dimming levels. So maybe they don't function 100% perfectly but I wouldn't notice the difference.

I do have LED bulbs that don't go completely off when dimmed.  I have one of those bulbs in my pool cabana. So those don't work properly. But I guess that could get it working well enough with different LED bulbs.

[RyanE]

On 9/16/2024 at 1:42 PM, blub said:

When I remember C4 lighting Gen1 was after initial release. We did get C4 1.3.2 in 2006 and if my brain isn't mushed there was no lighting a that point and it came in 2 or so years later - so not 20 years yet

Gen1 lighting was available at initial release, which was in May 2005.  Pretty close to 20 years now, but you're right, not quite there.

Only 19.6 years... 

RyanE

[RyanE]

There are certainly LEDs that work fairly well even with Gen1 dimmers.  I've switched most of my house over to LEDs, even the rooms with Gen1 dimmers.

There are advantages of using the Gen3 over Gen1/2 devices (in addition to updated styles):

• They use a lot less power per dimmer when 'off' (Gen1 dimmers use almost 1W even with 0% load)
• Better ramping rates and more compatibility with LEDs
• Built-in energy usage monitoring
• MOSFET recovery on faults
• Not limited as to number of scenes they can participate in
• Keypad configurability and keypad/dimmer combo option

That said, it will unfortunately still be painful and expensive for people who have Gen1 and want to go higher than X4's initial release.  I personally have 70 or so Gen1 devices in my house, and even though I get them at a significant employee discount, I'm not looking forward to ripping and replacing them. 

RyanE

[Cyknight]

8 hours ago, zaphod said:

Sorry - maybe I am interpreting this wrong but to me these sound like contradictory statements.  If Gen1 keypads have the same chipset as Gen1 dimmers then won't they have the same issue as Gen1 dimmers in terms of not working in the near future?

To be clear, gen 1 AND gen 2 lighting will end at the same time. These are all the 'led slots' ones (top and bottom). Gen 3 is the 'dot' led on the side (and the essential line).

Pretty sure both gen 1 and gen 2 have the same issues with LEDs, but I'd say 'don't work with LED' is overstated. They will work with some LEDs just fine, so-so with quite a few more (barely any dimming noticeable) poorly with many more (full on and full of work, most or all dimming below 100% causes flicker) and badly with others (flicker even when full on or not turning off).

 

[RyanE]

2 hours ago, zaphod said:

I do have LED bulbs that don't go completely off when dimmed.  I have one of those bulbs in my pool cabana. So those don't work properly. But I guess that could get it working well enough with different LED bulbs.

You could possibly solve the 'don't go off when dimmed' issue by adding a Load Capacitor like the Lutron's LUT-MLC.

It provides a minimum load to absorb the tiny current that is enough to light up the LEDs.

I use them on some of my non-dimmable exterior floods that don't turn fully off.

You install them in parallel with the load, so they can be installed either in the dimmer box, or across any of the loads in their box, which can be eaiser.

RyanE

[pdapice]

17 minutes ago, RyanE said:

I personally have 70 or so Gen1 devices in my house, and even though I get them at a significant employee discount, I'm not looking forward to ripping and replacing them. 

RyanE

well it seems like the obvious path for most of us is to submit our resumes to Control4, get hired, and utilize our employee discount to get new lights.

if you would be so kind as to put in a good word for me, i will start updating my resume now

[Scott Murray]

On 9/16/2024 at 12:25 PM, msgreenf said:

These are 20+ years old...

I think stating the oldest they could be (when Gen 1 first sold) doesn't acknowledge those that purchased Gen 2 (new) in 2013 (like myself).

I think it's more useful to NOT frame things through the lens of the longest possible time a company supports it's product to the minimum they supported it (when the stopped selling it and when they stop supporting it).

In this case, Control 4 is choosing to end support for their Gen 2 light / pads after 12 years (2025 when X4 releases, 2013 Gen 2 was sold new by C4).

[Scott Murray]

It's an interesting moment to reflect back on this exact topic (the question of Obsolescence of C4 light switches) and the discussion / thinking at the time... way back in 2010.

This is not intended to stir things up but reflect on the question and thinking then and what we should incorporate into our decision making today and going forward.  I think it was a really good question at the time and still pertinent today as many of us decide if/how to move forward in the HA space.

If nothing else, it should be a learning moment... perhaps for C4, perhaps for us as dealers & ultimately customers. 

Don't take the above as preachy... I'm finding myself in an introspective mindset and stumbled upon this thread.

 

[msgreenf]

39 minutes ago, Scott Murray said:

I think stating the oldest they could be (when Gen 1 first sold) doesn't acknowledge those that purchased Gen 2 (new) in 2013 (like myself).

I think it's more useful to NOT frame things through the lens of the longest possible time a company supports it's product to the minimum they supported it (when the stopped selling it and when they EOL supporting it going forward).

In this case, Control 4 is choosing to EOL OS support their Gen 2 light / pads after 12 years (2025 when X4 releases, 2013 Gen 2 was sold new by C4).

I understand your point but the technology is dated from when it comes out. Not from the last time you could buy it. I'm sure you can still find gen 1/2 new on eBay. 

I had someone email me excited to activate an hc250 they bought off eBay. But you can't...

[Cyknight]

2 hours ago, msgreenf said:

the technology is dated from when it comes out

And that would still be something like 2008 for gen2 - over 15 years.

[Scott Murray]

13 hours ago, msgreenf said:

I understand your point but the technology is dated from when it comes out. Not from the last time you could buy it. I'm sure you can still find gen 1/2 new on eBay. 

I had someone email me excited to activate an hc250 they bought off eBay. But you can't...

 I wrote and was speaking about purchasing new from C4 (not eBay)

You’re referring to the maximum time C4 supported Gen2 lighting and I’m suggesting customers and dealers should be focused and more interested in the minimum end of support window.

EOS windows can be measured in maximums or minimums. IMO, if the focus is on customers and what they can expect (at a minimum) we’d should be talking about the later or at least both.

Note: C4 actually sold Gen2 lighting new beyond 2013 but I was trying to be fair because mid 2013 Gen 3 lighting was announced and customers could buy it or purchase the older for a period of time (likely because it matched their other switches).  So in some respects the end of support window is actually shorter than 12 years but I thought that wasn’t a fair or balanced point of view.

[RAV]

So what does “supported” mean?
Isn’t that the question?

The tech world changes so rapidly, and chip abilities exponentially so.

No new features for you!
Is that “end of support”?

[bamjamdam]

Does the UI for the neeo expected to be updated with x4?

[blub]

17 hours ago, RyanE said:

Only 19.6 years.

Ha I knew it -
We did get a few years later, but I do not remember the reason

 

17 hours ago, RyanE said:

That said, it will unfortunately still be painful and expensive for people who have Gen1 and want to go higher than X4's initial release.  I personally have 70 or so Gen1 devices in my house, and even though I get them at a significant employee discount, I'm not looking forward to ripping and replacing them

17 hours ago, pdapice said:

well it seems like the obvious path for most of us is to submit our resumes to Control4, get hired, and utilize our employee discount to get new lights.

If a lot of ppl write C4 about that topic they might offer a bridge solution or a replacement program with discounts.

14 hours ago, msgreenf said:

I understand your point but the technology is dated from when it comes out

A PC, an iPAD or a notebook is dated when it comes out it is a piece of technology that at one point will not work anymore with web pages, processing load etc....

Devices that you install in houses, boats or whatever aren't supposed to become dated that quickly they are supposed to last and all Gen1 or 2 switches and dimmers continue do their intended function just fine an probably will for another 15+ years until HW fails  - if lighting is now what will be next, HVAC system will not work with Control4 after 10 years - well just rip it out and buy a new one when u want X5 ! easy, right?

Devices like that should continue to work as long as the HW works, period as it is a simple money grab from C4, the devices still work just fine

Yeah maybe the extra $ of doing KNX might be worth it. If I am going to spend 20-25k€ in C4 dimmers and keypads and I cannot be sure that Control4 will still work wit their own product in 10 or 11 years then it is not a worth spending my money on them -wh now maybe Gen4 is up in 2026 and then G3n wil be dropped in 10 years and I a stuck