Any Unifi "experts" out there?

[Control4Savant]

54 minutes ago, Andrew luecke said:

Quite easily... A cloud key can be set to auto-update, Gen 2 has battery backup and if you're using a UDM or similar, it handles provisioning of devices a lot better. You also don't run the risk of other servers interfering with the database server. Unifi also completely controls the software/hardware stack so less issues.

That being said, I recommend using a gateway (as it avoids lots of issues), and use that to do all routing and management

Trust me, my UDM actually coincidentally got corrupted yesterday. After doing a recovery, it downloaded the config from cloud and was easy to get going.. I haven't needed any real maintenance in years. Whereas, in the past, java issues have caused problems

It's the same with drivers like the Chowmain Home assistant driver. We recommend using devices like the HA Green because it is a fully supported device

I can't remember if the firmware updates will be done without the controller. But, they're really not that expensive imho

Cost is not a problem nor is using one… the conversation became about what’s easiest/ most simple with a router and APs already in play. 

[Popolou]

20 hours ago, eggzlot said:

But there are some features I am trying to set up for him which I cannot figure out how to do without a Cloud Key involved.  The person who "set him up" just installed 6 APs, gave them the same SSID and same password.  He still drops when he roams, he has no guest network and I want to create multiple SSIDs to ensure some devices dont try to hop from AP to AP - all of these things I cannot figure out how to do without a Cloud Key.  I am not a professional, I am his neighbor/friend so just trying to help.  He doesnt mind spending the money so if the $130 or $200 allows me to quickly do what I need to do, he is fine with it.

Like i said and which @Control4Savant is repeating himself saying, you do not need a dedicated controller for that. All of that can be set up on either the iOS/Android app or the pc controller and then shut it down. If you are after the analytics/stats or need a guest portal, then the controller is required 24/7. You're seemingly going around in circles otherwise. I am struggling to see how there can be any easier option for your neighbour than this.

[ekohn00]

11 hours ago, Control4Savant said:

What does rebooting computers have to do with anything? You keep saying it makes things a lot easier without actually saying how it would be easier than pc hosting. 

was homogeneous to big of a word?

Andrew above also makes some good points.

[eggzlot]

1 hour ago, Popolou said:

Like i said and which @Control4Savant is repeating himself saying, you do not need a dedicated controller for that. All of that can be set up on either the iOS/Android app or the pc controller and then shut it down. If you are after the analytics/stats or need a guest portal, then the controller is required 24/7. You're seemingly going around in circles otherwise. I am struggling to see how there can be any easier option for your neighbour than this.

I get what he said, and he has a point.  My cloud key has been running 24x7 for over 6-7 years with no issue.  I have no idea how often my co worker swaps out computers, if his only computer is a work computer (minus what his kids have) and he cannot install software on it.  We as a group here are a bunch of tech dorks - these days, at least in our neighborhood, kids get chromebooks from school and the main PC may be something supplied by an employer if you work remotely (my friend does) and you may not have a spare PC laying around where you have all the access to do as you please.  Most of my friends are mostly tablet/phone people; when I tell them I have 2 personal comps (one PC and one Mac) I can see their eyes spin.

His cloud gateway ultra is due to be delivered today; we are likely going to sync up Friday and I'll go over some options with him and we'll figure it out.

Appreciate everyone's input as I did learn something new - you can run a unifi instance without a cloud key, just not the way it was installed for him.

[Control4Savant]

3 hours ago, eggzlot said:

I get what he said, and he has a point.  My cloud key has been running 24x7 for over 6-7 years with no issue.  I have no idea how often my co worker swaps out computers, if his only computer is a work computer (minus what his kids have) and he cannot install software on it.  We as a group here are a bunch of tech dorks - these days, at least in our neighborhood, kids get chromebooks from school and the main PC may be something supplied by an employer if you work remotely (my friend does) and you may not have a spare PC laying around where you have all the access to do as you please.  Most of my friends are mostly tablet/phone people; when I tell them I have 2 personal comps (one PC and one Mac) I can see their eyes spin.

His cloud gateway ultra is due to be delivered today; we are likely going to sync up Friday and I'll go over some options with him and we'll figure it out.

Appreciate everyone's input as I did learn something new - you can run a unifi instance without a cloud key, just not the way it was installed for him.

You point about swapping PCs in the future or even the very real possibility of having one available for personal use is definitely solid and of corse in that case a managed controller would be an obvious better option than buying a laptop. 

 

3 hours ago, ekohn00 said:

was homogeneous to big of a word?

Andrew above also makes some good points.

No, but homogeneous being easier is opinion. Im simply trying to compare features, steps to implement and points of failure. 

[Andrew luecke]

2 hours ago, Control4Savant said:

You point about swapping PCs in the future or even the very real possibility of having one available for personal use is definitely solid and of corse in that case a managed controller would be an obvious better option than buying a laptop. 

 

No, but homogeneous being easier is opinion. Im simply trying to compare features, steps to implement and points of failure. 

  Putting the controller on your PC is more complicated in so many ways. The only argument against at all realistically is price lol. I'm confused how there are even 2 sides to this debate tbh

Ranging from full time monitoring to software update management to unifi AI and even windows breaking things, and the cheap cost.. Cloud keys actually have a backup sd card in them (or should) and can backup to cloud so even if they fail it's trivial to get a new one going. Gen 1 tended to get corruption issues but gen 2 also has battery backup to prevent that

And lots of things like unifi AI you want a full time controller (if you use them). Monitoring is a huge asset too

It's also plausible, certain wireless standards like 802.11k utilise the controller (nobody seems to be sure about this). I haven't seen roaming issues on unifi for years now. Which suggests also config is an issue here and may be that the discussion is taking a wrong approach

When I worked for an installer we personally stopped deploying jobs without a full time controller (cloud, udm or cloud key)  probably 8 years ago or longer.

It's far less messing around when unifi controls the entire software stack. We even saw conflicts with other software using the database port a few times on PC, especially with technical software, but java caused lots of issues in the past too.

@eggzlot In regards to the actual problem though regarding roaming not working well. What model of APs exactly are being used. Also, wifi is disabled on your router correct?

Also, are you using Sonos or anything like that?

[Amr]

On 6/30/2024 at 3:31 PM, eggzlot said:

My neighbor's network was not set up properly a few years ago and he has been complaining so I went over to take a look.  The main issue, at least with his wifi, is that the person set up 6 Unifi AP's but all as single devices, no controller running the program.  So roaming around the house causes drop outs as you move between the devices.  

I have 4 Unifi APs and I have an old Cloud Key but I see those are not available anymore and the Cloud Gateway Ultra seems to be the basic entry to get the APs into 1 controller.

The thing is, the new device is also a router.  He is using the Optimum/Cablevision supplied router.  I don't really want to get involved in calling Optimum and getting that put into Bridge mode because I have it at my house, its finicky, I've had to reset it a few times via the Optimum interface, etc.   Can I just plug the Gateway Ultra into his main switch, plug nothing into the Gateway Ultra itself, and use it as a "cloud key" and no routing features?  This isn't a C4 installation home if that matters.

Really trying to make this as easy/trouble free as possible.  

If you have a NAS or an-always ON PC u can use it and don’t waster any money on a cloud key new or old, I have this solid setup for years now, zero issues, even Neeo’s are working great, it was a considerable learning experience for me, now I understand all about what firmware to use, when to use a Beta, when to use an RC, etc, tweaks and settings, also for UniFi the placement of the AP’s around the house is much better with less units (less noise), I achieved an excellent throughput with only 4 AP’s in a multistory house that is fully concrete.

[eggzlot]

1 hour ago, Andrew luecke said:

  Putting the controller on your PC is more complicated in so many ways. The only argument against at all realistically is price lol. I'm confused how there are even 2 sides to this debate tbh

Ranging from full time monitoring to software update management to unifi AI and even windows breaking things, and the cheap cost.. Cloud keys actually have a backup sd card in them (or should) and can backup to cloud so even if they fail it's trivial to get a new one going. Gen 1 tended to get corruption issues but gen 2 also has battery backup to prevent that

And lots of things like unifi AI you want a full time controller (if you use them). Monitoring is a huge asset too

It's also plausible, certain wireless standards like 802.11k utilise the controller (nobody seems to be sure about this). I haven't seen roaming issues on unifi for years now. Which suggests also config is an issue here and may be that the discussion is taking a wrong approach

When I worked for an installer we personally stopped deploying jobs without a full time controller (cloud, udm or cloud key)  probably 8 years ago or longer.

It's far less messing around when unifi controls the entire software stack. We even saw conflicts with other software using the database port a few times on PC, especially with technical software, but java caused lots of issues in the past too.

@eggzlot In regards to the actual problem though regarding roaming not working well. What model of APs exactly are being used. Also, wifi is disabled on your router correct?

Also, are you using Sonos or anything like that?

It’s my friends house.  No control4 but he does have Sonos.  Not sure which specific AP model but house is 2 years old so basically “new-ish” models 

[Control4Savant]

4 hours ago, Andrew luecke said:

  Putting the controller on your PC is more complicated in so many ways. The only argument against at all realistically is price lol. I'm confused how there are even 2 sides to this debate tbh

Ranging from full time monitoring to software update management to unifi AI and even windows breaking things, and the cheap cost.. Cloud keys actually have a backup sd card in them (or should) and can backup to cloud so even if they fail it's trivial to get a new one going. Gen 1 tended to get corruption issues but gen 2 also has battery backup to prevent that

And lots of things like unifi AI you want a full time controller (if you use them). Monitoring is a huge asset too

It's also plausible, certain wireless standards like 802.11k utilise the controller (nobody seems to be sure about this). I haven't seen roaming issues on unifi for years now. Which suggests also config is an issue here and may be that the discussion is taking a wrong approach

When I worked for an installer we personally stopped deploying jobs without a full time controller (cloud, udm or cloud key)  probably 8 years ago or longer.

It's far less messing around when unifi controls the entire software stack. We even saw conflicts with other software using the database port a few times on PC, especially with technical software, but java caused lots of issues in the past too.

@eggzlot In regards to the actual problem though regarding roaming not working well. What model of APs exactly are being used. Also, wifi is disabled on your router correct?

Also, are you using Sonos or anything like that?

Yeah. Hitting download and install is SUPER complicated. I cant take anything you say seriously but thanks for the laugh. 

[Andrew luecke]

12 hours ago, Control4Savant said:

Yeah. Hitting download and install is SUPER complicated. I cant take anything you say seriously but thanks for the laugh. 

 

When I mean complicated, I mean:

1. Long term Ubiquiti users will remember the constant breakage for shortcuts in windows due to small things like upgrading java in the past. I believe Ubiquiti though now has addressed this
2. There have been times Java itself broke
3. Ubiquiti has no control over the software stack in windows. Windows Updates could break things, or tighten security.
4. We've seen cases where the ports conflict. Normally this is due to technical software though.. It's rare though
5. You can either pick between running a database on your computer full time (and tie up RAM / CPU), or needing to open the controller every so often for updates.
6. If you're running adhoc you lose monitoring for AP's failing or going offline, unifi AI (if you don't run full time etc), auto-updates (if you want them) and plenty of other things
7. Provisioning is more likely to be messy in some cases
8. It wasn't uncommon for people to accidentally upgrade computers and forget to move their controller.
9. It's not really an extra point of failure. Your PC can fail, and you're simply replacing with a device which supports auto-updates anyway (and is self managing). Unifi also has FULL control over the cloud keys, so manages the entire stack there. Whereas, a windows update could break Java . As AMR pointed out, NAS is also an option, and is also a better option than a windows PC generally (some of the reason is because docker offers more control and NAS's tend to have a static IP and are always online)

Unifi's own page makes the same recommendation: https://help.ui.com/hc/en-us/articles/360012282453-Self-Hosting-a-UniFi-Network-Server for similar reasons..

 

That being said, I've posted this question to Unifi's forums directly (as they're neutral), because I'm pretty confident they'll provide the same advice (I have 10+ years of experience with unifi, and over 250+ onsite installations. I've also assisted with hundreds of them, because my previous employer was a sub-distributor to the AV/Automation market).  https://community.ui.com/questions/Cloud-Key-Gateway-vs-PC-hosting/f701d915-53c8-45e8-afae-e4b6c3868ed2 .

[Andrew luecke]

12 hours ago, eggzlot said:

It’s my friends house.  No control4 but he does have Sonos.  Not sure which specific AP model but house is 2 years old so basically “new-ish” models 

Are they using Unifi Switches? Or cheap switches.

if they're using Cheap switches, check that only 1 Sonos unit is connected via Ethernet. Sonos needs RSTP enabled (available only on Smart/managed switches generally), or if you have multiple Sonos units plugged in, they cause a network loop. It's actually a super common mistake.

However, most ethernet switches tend to crash so quickly and reboot, you may not notice.

The easiest way to test for it is to do ping -t to your router, your switches, and various devices simultaneously whilst hardwired simultanously. if you notice multiple dropouts or high pings, your issue might not be roaming. Unifi Switches have RSTP enabled by default (so are fine). Also, daisy chaining Sonos off Unifi units causes issues too (everything should be connected directly to core switch).

Some old Unifi AP's (like the Square ones), also I don't recall ever got roaming. I've also seen issues with fast roaming on some devices, causing the opposite.

Honestly, roaming on any new Unifi AP should be good

[eggzlot]

4 hours ago, Andrew luecke said:

Are they using Unifi Switches? Or cheap switches.

if they're using Cheap switches, check that only 1 Sonos unit is connected via Ethernet. Sonos needs RSTP enabled (available only on Smart/managed switches generally), or if you have multiple Sonos units plugged in, they cause a network loop. It's actually a super common mistake.

However, most ethernet switches tend to crash so quickly and reboot, you may not notice.

The easiest way to test for it is to do ping -t to your router, your switches, and various devices simultaneously whilst hardwired simultanously. if you notice multiple dropouts or high pings, your issue might not be roaming. Unifi Switches have RSTP enabled by default (so are fine). Also, daisy chaining Sonos off Unifi units causes issues too (everything should be connected directly to core switch).

Some old Unifi AP's (like the Square ones), also I don't recall ever got roaming. I've also seen issues with fast roaming on some devices, causing the opposite.

Honestly, roaming on any new Unifi AP should be good

Araknis switches.  Somehow his general contractors son had access to Snap products, so he has Araknis switches, Clare for Camera/Security but they used Unifi Access points.  not sure why they didn't use Snap-branded AP's too....originally I offered to help design/install/set this up for my friend but I think he felt bad asking me to do it and felt "pressure" to use the GC's son because he was already on site so....so now I am coming in to try and at least help with the AP/Wifi stuff.  

[Control4Savant]

5 hours ago, Andrew luecke said:

 

When I mean complicated, I mean:

1. Long term Ubiquiti users will remember the constant breakage for shortcuts in windows due to small things like upgrading java in the past. I believe Ubiquiti though now has addressed this
2. There have been times Java itself broke
3. Ubiquiti has no control over the software stack in windows. Windows Updates could break things, or tighten security.
4. We've seen cases where the ports conflict. Normally this is due to technical software though.. It's rare though
5. You can either pick between running a database on your computer full time (and tie up RAM / CPU), or needing to open the controller every so often for updates.
6. If you're running adhoc you lose monitoring for AP's failing or going offline, unifi AI (if you don't run full time etc), auto-updates (if you want them) and plenty of other things
7. Provisioning is more likely to be messy in some cases
8. It wasn't uncommon for people to accidentally upgrade computers and forget to move their controller.
9. It's not really an extra point of failure. Your PC can fail, and you're simply replacing with a device which supports auto-updates anyway (and is self managing). Unifi also has FULL control over the cloud keys, so manages the entire stack there. Whereas, a windows update could break Java . As AMR pointed out, NAS is also an option, and is also a better option than a windows PC generally (some of the reason is because docker offers more control and NAS's tend to have a static IP and are always online)

Unifi's own page makes the same recommendation: https://help.ui.com/hc/en-us/articles/360012282453-Self-Hosting-a-UniFi-Network-Server for similar reasons..

 

That being said, I've posted this question to Unifi's forums directly (as they're neutral), because I'm pretty confident they'll provide the same advice (I have 10+ years of experience with unifi, and over 250+ onsite installations. I've also assisted with hundreds of them, because my previous employer was a sub-distributor to the AV/Automation market).  https://community.ui.com/questions/Cloud-Key-Gateway-vs-PC-hosting/f701d915-53c8-45e8-afae-e4b6c3868ed2 .

All seriousness I know you have UI experience, but iv also been using the brand professional for a decade, literally not using cloud keys or the like. 
 

from the site…

Does the UniFi Network application have to run at all times?

If the UniFi Network application is turned off, adopted UniFi devices (access points, switches) will keep functioning. 

However, it is highly recommended to keep the UniFi Network application running at all times. This enables you gather accurate statistics and make configuration changes whenever needed. 

oOoOOooO.:.. statistics. 

 

[ekohn00]

2 hours ago, eggzlot said:

Araknis switches.  Somehow his general contractors son had access to Snap products, so he has Araknis switches, Clare for Camera/Security but they used Unifi Access points.  not sure why they didn't use Snap-branded AP's too....originally I offered to help design/install/set this up for my friend but I think he felt bad asking me to do it and felt "pressure" to use the GC's son because he was already on site so....so now I am coming in to try and at least help with the AP/Wifi stuff.  

It sounds like you're working your way to this, and if it was me i'd do the same, I'd just go to bridge-mode, put in the new unifi router, move to the new router, redo the wifi with the new router and pause. You can then look at moving the switches over to unifi in order to have everything on the same mgm't platform.

[Andrew luecke]

3 hours ago, eggzlot said:

Araknis switches.  Somehow his general contractors son had access to Snap products, so he has Araknis switches, Clare for Camera/Security but they used Unifi Access points.  not sure why they didn't use Snap-branded AP's too....originally I offered to help design/install/set this up for my friend but I think he felt bad asking me to do it and felt "pressure" to use the GC's son because he was already on site so....so now I am coming in to try and at least help with the AP/Wifi stuff.  

I'd start by checking the Sonos and stp first.

And ensure everything is connected to a central switch, and your router has wifi disabled and only 1 lan connection. Nothing should be Daisy chained off the APs.

I'd also turn off unifi AI and turn off fast roaming. Ensure the APs are up to date.

[zaphod]

On 7/3/2024 at 2:25 PM, Amr said:

If you have a NAS or an-always ON PC u can use it and don’t waster any money on a cloud key new or old, I have this solid setup for years now, zero issues, even Neeo’s are working great, it was a considerable learning experience for me, now I understand all about what firmware to use, when to use a Beta, when to use an RC, etc, tweaks and settings, also for UniFi the placement of the AP’s around the house is much better with less units (less noise), I achieved an excellent throughput with only 4 AP’s in a multistory house that is fully concrete.

This!  I have been running the Unifi-Controller software in a docker on my unRAID server for many years.  The server is mainly used as a media server but I run a bunch of dockers as well including Unifi, PiHole, Plex, etc.  Also playing around running Home Assistant in a docker.

[zaphod]

On 7/2/2024 at 7:12 PM, Andrew luecke said:

Quite easily... A cloud key can be set to auto-update, Gen 2 has battery backup and if you're using a UDM or similar, it handles provisioning of devices a lot better. You also don't run the risk of other servers interfering with the database server. Unifi also completely controls the software/hardware stack so less issues.

 

Do you really want Unifi stuff auto-updating?  They have tended to have release that have lots of bugs and it makes sense to stay off the bleeding edge, especially for a user who is less sophisticated and less into playing around.