eggzlot Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 My neighbor's network was not set up properly a few years ago and he has been complaining so I went over to take a look. The main issue, at least with his wifi, is that the person set up 6 Unifi AP's but all as single devices, no controller running the program. So roaming around the house causes drop outs as you move between the devices. I have 4 Unifi APs and I have an old Cloud Key but I see those are not available anymore and the Cloud Gateway Ultra seems to be the basic entry to get the APs into 1 controller. The thing is, the new device is also a router. He is using the Optimum/Cablevision supplied router. I don't really want to get involved in calling Optimum and getting that put into Bridge mode because I have it at my house, its finicky, I've had to reset it a few times via the Optimum interface, etc. Can I just plug the Gateway Ultra into his main switch, plug nothing into the Gateway Ultra itself, and use it as a "cloud key" and no routing features? This isn't a C4 installation home if that matters. Really trying to make this as easy/trouble free as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejn1 Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 I would just get an older cloud key (Unifi UC-CK) which is a pure cloud key for the APs. You can probably find them cheap on Ebay. Other option is to download the free unifi controller software and run it on a PC if they have one on most of the time. I'm sure you can do what you say though with a new Ultra but I haven't played with it yet. Its a shame is such a pain to get bridge mode working because that would be the best way to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggzlot Posted June 30 Author Share Posted June 30 I don’t want to buy used hardware for a friend because I don’t want to be on 24/7 support and there are new cloud keys on Amazon but they are 175 so 50 more for older tech that could be retired at some point so this is why I ask because I have a cloud key and a mikrotik with tons of customizations. If my cloud key kicks it - what’s my upgrade path too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejn1 Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 52 minutes ago, eggzlot said: I don’t want to buy used hardware for a friend because I don’t want to be on 24/7 support and there are new cloud keys on Amazon but they are 175 so 50 more for older tech that could be retired at some point so this is why I ask because I have a cloud key and a mikrotik with tons of customizations. If my cloud key kicks it - what’s my upgrade path too? If costs doesnt matter, then just buy the cloud key + that is current gen... i know this can be added to another router for the APs... If you can disable the router in the Ultra and just run as a cloud key, i don't have that answer to hand but someone else may have experience with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew luecke Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 2 hours ago, ejn1 said: I would just get an older cloud key (Unifi UC-CK) which is a pure cloud key for the APs. You can probably find them cheap on Ebay. Other option is to download the free unifi controller software and run it on a PC if they have one on most of the time. I'm sure you can do what you say though with a new Ultra but I haven't played with it yet. Its a shame is such a pain to get bridge mode working because that would be the best way to go. I actually strongly suggest against the original cloud keys They weren't battery backed so in general had serious data corruption issues. When I was an installer we installed so many of them, and it was fairly common to have a corrupt DB IBZICON and BY96 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejn1 Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 29 minutes ago, Andrew luecke said: I actually strongly suggest against the original cloud keys They weren't battery backed so in general had serious data corruption issues. When I was an installer we installed so many of them, and it was fairly common to have a corrupt DB It would be great if they re-released the updated cloud key that was smaller form factor without the NVR as many folks have a separate UNVR now for Protect. When they released that at the same price point (more or less) everyone went the plus version. The smaller versions sells like hot cakes on the resell market still. Most decent racks will have a separate UPS backup anyway I presume. I had the first gen cloud for years without a corruption but you most certainly have a bigger sample size then me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popolou Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 Not sure how it is possible to set up the unifi AP to be independent - you mean each AP is on its own BSSID? Anyhoo, It is unnecessary to run the network controller 24/7 just for basic wifi. A quick solution would be to download the mobile app and go about setting it up correctly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lippavisual Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 Buy a new Cloud Key. Reset each AP, then adopt all AP’s to the new Cloud Key. Easy in theory, but with Unifi, prepare for some delays or APs not wanting to reset or adopt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggzlot Posted July 2 Author Share Posted July 2 Riddle me this @lippavisual or @ejn1 - why is the router/controller Cloud Gateway Ultra $129 whereas the Cloud Key is $179 or the Cloud Key Plus is $199 (the Plus includes a 1 TB hdd for nvr ok) but why is the cloud key $50 more than the Gateway whereas it appears the gateway is a router and an AP controller whereas the Cloud Key is just an AP Controller? Am I missing something obvious here in their hardware/model usage? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejn1 Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 36 minutes ago, eggzlot said: Riddle me this @lippavisual or @ejn1 - why is the router/controller Cloud Gateway Ultra $129 whereas the Cloud Key is $179 or the Cloud Key Plus is $199 (the Plus includes a 1 TB hdd for nvr ok) but why is the cloud key $50 more than the Gateway whereas it appears the gateway is a router and an AP controller whereas the Cloud Key is just an AP Controller? Am I missing something obvious here in their hardware/model usage? I don't think I can explain Unifi's pricing strategy but this was a discussion when they first released the cloud key newer versions, eg why was one with a NVR and a hard drive and Unifi Protect only $20 more than without? I always suspected it was marketing to get folks into Protect and buy the cameras. Also, I believe the cloud key has a few features that the combined units dont have, eg battery backup and a higher Unifi device limit. I think there is an appeal to some to separate out points of failure from the router and the controller also. For your friend, it's just a simpler cleaner install if they are set on using their current router. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ekohn00 Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 44 minutes ago, eggzlot said: Riddle me this @lippavisual or @ejn1 - why is the router/controller Cloud Gateway Ultra $129 whereas the Cloud Key is $179 or the Cloud Key Plus is $199 (the Plus includes a 1 TB hdd for nvr ok) but why is the cloud key $50 more than the Gateway whereas it appears the gateway is a router and an AP controller whereas the Cloud Key is just an AP Controller? Am I missing something obvious here in their hardware/model usage? Is it a big riddle if you read the spec sheets?….. If memory serves the cloud keys can handle more devices. Regardless, I think they’ve all been replaced with new devices. So either buy the an old cloud key as you pointed out or just go bridge mode with optimum. (Yeh they suck). Personally, I’d do it right moving forward. Go bridgemode and use the new cloud gateway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Control4Savant Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 Why were still debating which way to use a cloud key when its been mentioned several times to have no impact on your network or wifi performance, I do not know… Popolou 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggzlot Posted July 2 Author Share Posted July 2 13 minutes ago, Control4Savant said: Why were still debating which way to use a cloud key when its been mentioned several times to have no impact on your network or wifi performance, I do not know… Not sure if that was directed at me or not. But there are some features I am trying to set up for him which I cannot figure out how to do without a Cloud Key involved. The person who "set him up" just installed 6 APs, gave them the same SSID and same password. He still drops when he roams, he has no guest network and I want to create multiple SSIDs to ensure some devices dont try to hop from AP to AP - all of these things I cannot figure out how to do without a Cloud Key. I am not a professional, I am his neighbor/friend so just trying to help. He doesnt mind spending the money so if the $130 or $200 allows me to quickly do what I need to do, he is fine with it. 17 minutes ago, ekohn00 said: Is it a big riddle if you read the spec sheets?….. If memory serves the cloud keys can handle more devices. Regardless, I think they’ve all been replaced with new devices. So either buy the an old cloud key as you pointed out or just go bridge mode with optimum. (Yeh they suck). Personally, I’d do it right moving forward. Go bridgemode and use the new cloud gateway I am leaning this way - in my experience with Optimum, it could take 1-2 hours of being tossed around on the phone to get someone to get you in bridge mode, but once its there and you log into the router UI and point the DMZ to the new host or whatever, I guess it is stable until you need to replace the hardware a few years later, forget about bridge mode then plop in the new router and have all sorts of issues (not that has happened to me before ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejn1 Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 1 hour ago, Control4Savant said: Why were still debating which way to use a cloud key when its been mentioned several times to have no impact on your network or wifi performance, I do not know… I think the view is that running 6 APs in a home with no unifi controller optimizing wifi signal / strength and handoffs across his network is sub optimum... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Control4Savant Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 1 hour ago, ejn1 said: I think the view is that running 6 APs in a home with no unifi controller optimizing wifi signal / strength and handoffs across his network is sub optimum... Its not sub optimum. Thats the point. Especially with how “often” Unifi software bugs occur not to mention you can run the same management software on your local PC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Control4Savant Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 2 hours ago, eggzlot said: Not sure if that was directed at me or not. But there are some features I am trying to set up for him which I cannot figure out how to do without a Cloud Key involved. The person who "set him up" just installed 6 APs, gave them the same SSID and same password. He still drops when he roams, he has no guest network and I want to create multiple SSIDs to ensure some devices dont try to hop from AP to AP - all of these things I cannot figure out how to do without a Cloud Key. I am not a professional, I am his neighbor/friend so just trying to help. He doesnt mind spending the money so if the $130 or $200 allows me to quickly do what I need to do, he is fine with it. I am leaning this way - in my experience with Optimum, it could take 1-2 hours of being tossed around on the phone to get someone to get you in bridge mode, but once its there and you log into the router UI and point the DMZ to the new host or whatever, I guess it is stable until you need to replace the hardware a few years later, forget about bridge mode then plop in the new router and have all sorts of issues (not that has happened to me before ) Download the management software on your PC or mac. Reset the APs and set them up on your local machine the same way you would a cloud key or UDM but without the extra. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggzlot Posted July 2 Author Share Posted July 2 9 minutes ago, Control4Savant said: Download the management software on your PC or mac. Reset the APs and set them up on your local machine the same way you would a cloud key or UDM but without the extra. And all features I mentioned about multiple Ssid, guest networks etc can be set up? I did ask my friend and he doesn’t have a pc running 24x7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejn1 Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 48 minutes ago, Control4Savant said: Its not sub optimum. Thats the point. Especially with how “often” Unifi software bugs occur not to mention you can run the same management software on your local PC Running on your PC is no different than a cloud key which I had mentioned earlier. I have just never heard someone say that the controller software was not needed at all which was why I was asking the question. Agree on the PC option but still think its not ideal to ignore a controller all together. The bugs issue is a bit legacy imho, i haven't had any software bug issues in a long time but nothings perfect.... I'm having some quirks now with my Ruckus APs dropping the 5G connection randomly so it can happen with others as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Control4Savant Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 55 minutes ago, eggzlot said: And all features I mentioned about multiple Ssid, guest networks etc can be set up? I did ask my friend and he doesn’t have a pc running 24x7 Yes, even mesh settings will work if you have any. Thats really the only feature not available if you are using the standalone app that I have ran into in Resi setups. My networks are all without cloudkey or dm. More advanced setups you can even forward management to your machine even when not onsite. They do now have an AP that has the cloud key included which is nice. Its not a bad thing. Just extra steps unnecessary for most resi, small business wifi. Please understand the software does not have to be active, so they do not need to keep the PC on 24/7 or run the software each time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ekohn00 Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 1 hour ago, Control4Savant said: Download the management software on your PC or mac. Reset the APs and set them up on your local machine the same way you would a cloud key or UDM but without the extra. For the $150 get the gateway - make life easy. ejn1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Control4Savant Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 1 hour ago, ekohn00 said: For the $150 get the gateway - make life easy. How is buying another device thats an additional fail point, in itself needs updated and managed more easy than the same software available for PC/Mac for free? Feel free to buy or setup your network either way will be fine but it’s certainly not easier Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ekohn00 Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 1 hour ago, Control4Savant said: How is buying another device thats an additional fail point, in itself needs updated and managed more easy than the same software available for PC/Mac for free? Feel free to buy or setup your network either way will be fine but it’s certainly not easier Do you not reboot computers on a regular bases? It can run, but it should be run on dedicated servers. Sticking the router out there with the APs creates a homogeneous network - this makes things a lot easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DLite Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 6 hours ago, eggzlot said: And all features I mentioned about multiple Ssid, guest networks etc can be set up? I did ask my friend and he doesn’t have a pc running 24x7 As far as I understand it, the big reason to run a Unifi controller 24x7 is if you want monitoring and statistics. Otherwise, you just need it up and running whenever you change settings on your devices. So, if you are unlikely to tinker with the settings very often, you might want to just use the free controller on a PC/Mac, set it up once, and be done with it. You can always open the controller again if you want to edit settings, or update devices, down the road. Just bear in mind that all his devices will be tethered to that particular controller instance, so if he gets rid of the computer, you'll need to reset and readopt the devices to a new controller. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew luecke Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 3 hours ago, Control4Savant said: How is buying another device thats an additional fail point, in itself needs updated and managed more easy than the same software available for PC/Mac for free? Feel free to buy or setup your network either way will be fine but it’s certainly not easier Quite easily... A cloud key can be set to auto-update, Gen 2 has battery backup and if you're using a UDM or similar, it handles provisioning of devices a lot better. You also don't run the risk of other servers interfering with the database server. Unifi also completely controls the software/hardware stack so less issues. That being said, I recommend using a gateway (as it avoids lots of issues), and use that to do all routing and management Trust me, my UDM actually coincidentally got corrupted yesterday. After doing a recovery, it downloaded the config from cloud and was easy to get going.. I haven't needed any real maintenance in years. Whereas, in the past, java issues have caused problems It's the same with drivers like the Chowmain Home assistant driver. We recommend using devices like the HA Green because it is a fully supported device I can't remember if the firmware updates will be done without the controller. But, they're really not that expensive imho ekohn00 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Control4Savant Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 2 hours ago, ekohn00 said: Do you not reboot computers on a regular bases? It can run, but it should be run on dedicated servers. Sticking the router out there with the APs creates a homogeneous network - this makes things a lot easier. What does rebooting computers have to do with anything? You keep saying it makes things a lot easier without actually saying how it would be easier than pc hosting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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