Seeking ideas for existing system/house integration

[AhViaMusicom]

HI! Ive decided to take the plunge and add proper home automation to my existing home.

Currently, I have multiple "home theaters". Basically a few rooms with their own TV, receiver, sources, ATV, cable box, etc. I have in wall/cieling speakers throughout my house that are mostly run by Sonos equipment. I have every possible combination of sonos equipment.

I am curious to learn if I can leave some of the existing "home theater" rooms in tact but be able to distribute audi and video to them via C4. In my main viewing/listening area, I have large speakers, a turntable, etc and would like to leave that room in tact, but still be able to control and feed it via C4. I understand that the sonos pieces will probably go away and that i will have to have the speakers fed by multizone amplification etc.

Am I crazy or way off base?

Any advice or info is truly appreciated in advance.

 

[Neo1738]

Biggest question is do you have Cat 5/6 to those TV or receiver locations? To do distributed video you'll need baluns for pretty much all systems to get stable and reliable connection. If you do then I would think you can keep a majority of the TV, Receiver, speakers etc. 

[AhViaMusicom]

I will have cat5/6 run to all locations but do not currently.

[Matt Lowe]

all of your existing im sure would stay in place as is. Sonos is fine with control4 just integration is limited.

its all a matter of exactly what you have to each location.

if you are running new cables and want video distribution run FIber or Fiber hdmis that are 8k certified. it will be cheaper and save you a lot of grief dealing with baluns

 

[AhViaMusicom]

thanks for advice on fiber. 

please forgive my newb questions...  are baluns bi directional? I want video distributed from a central location, certainly, but is it possible to send a source from a location back to the central location for distribution to other locations?

[Neo1738]

7 hours ago, AhViaMusicom said:

thanks for advice on fiber. 

please forgive my newb questions...  are baluns bi directional? I want video distributed from a central location, certainly, but is it possible to send a source from a location back to the central location for distribution to other locations?

Most MOIP (Media over IP) Systems have a controller, than a transmitter and receiver. Transmitter for each source, receiver for each TV. Where those transmitters and receivers are doesn't matter as long as you have cat cable to hook it into.

[DLite]

On 6/5/2020 at 9:40 AM, Matt Lowe said:

all of your existing im sure would stay in place as is. Sonos is fine with control4 just integration is limited.

its all a matter of exactly what you have to each location.

if you are running new cables and want video distribution run FIber or Fiber hdmis that are 8k certified. it will be cheaper and save you a lot of grief dealing with baluns

 

OMG, I wish I had gotten that advice 3 years ago, when we were doing our remodel!  Dealing with baluns has been a huge pain.

[AhViaMusicom]

On 6/5/2020 at 11:40 AM, Matt Lowe said:

all of your existing im sure would stay in place as is. Sonos is fine with control4 just integration is limited.

its all a matter of exactly what you have to each location.

if you are running new cables and want video distribution run FIber or Fiber hdmis that are 8k certified. it will be cheaper and save you a lot of grief dealing with baluns

 

Wait. Are you suggesting fiber or fiber hdmi in lieu of cat5/6 and baluns?

[AhViaMusicom]

Braintrust, could I:

Leave the existing speakers and tvs connected to existing a/v receivers and and specialty components (turntable etc) in place, have a new rack built with the equipment i want to use to distribute audio/video (switcher, appltv, cable boxes, whatever) and send those signals to all the existing equipment via Fiber HDMI?

If so, i would probably have 2 run to each location so I could also send a signal back to the distribution rack.

Is there any additional wiring that I would need? cat5/6? cable for IR?

Yall have been terribly helpful...  I have an extensive system and have zero need t replace everything unless i Have to.

[Pounce]

1 hour ago, AhViaMusicom said:

Braintrust, could I:

Leave the existing speakers and tvs connected to existing a/v receivers and and specialty components (turntable etc) in place, have a new rack built with the equipment i want to use to distribute audio/video (switcher, appltv, cable boxes, whatever) and send those signals to all the existing equipment via Fiber HDMI?

If so, i would probably have 2 run to each location so I could also send a signal back to the distribution rack.

Is there any additional wiring that I would need? cat5/6? cable for IR?

Yall have been terribly helpful...  I have an extensive system and have zero need t replace everything unless i Have to.

What is your actual objective? What experience in these media rooms are you trying to capture with distributed video?

Did you want to turn on all the TV's in the house and have them watch netflix or some streaming TV content in sync and have the audio come through the whole house audio?

I feel like distributed video needs or demands are changing and fewer people really want or needed it now that streaming is king. But there are some very solid good reasons for some use cases.

With the kind of money this is going to cost I'd take inventory of the TV's you have an see if its time to upgrade any of them. The reason is that distributed video at cutting edge levels with HDR+ and DolbyVision can get expensive and may suffer from poor quality. If you want your distributed video with the same quality as it would be if you had local sources you need to plan for it. I'd suggest getting up to date support. Above you had some great advice on running fiber HDMI to support 8k. The reason that is good advice is that its much easier to switch HDMI than to re-encode it to sent it over catX to then be displayed on the TV.

You just might be able to save a ton of money and house renovations by changing your tech approach to meet your use case. However, if cost isn't a problem and you don't mind having new cable run everywhere they are many good solutions.

Detail your use cases for distributed video and maybe detail the media room equipment and folks can pile on the suggestions.

[ejn1]

Hard to see the value investing in distributed video nowadays with Roku's on each TV....

[msgreenf]

Hard to see the value investing in distributed video nowadays with Roku's on each TV....

+1

[Jakelay]

1 hour ago, ejn1 said:

Hard to see the value investing in distributed video nowadays with Roku's on each TV....

I agree with this but there is something cool about video distribution and depending on what someone needs to do at each TV, the cost differential isn’t as high as some might expect.  It’s a heart stopping moment when you first see the cost of video distribution but if you watch TV the old fashioned way via set top boxes, it’s hard to go back.  Cord cutters are a different story but there are plenty of us that still subscribe to DTV or cable for example and having access to everything in a shared way is very cool. Unfortunately there are a lot of trade offs depending on what system you end up using: some use a lot of compression, some can’t do audio downmixing - none of them are perfect right now so the investment can be overwhelming but there are usually workarounds to most of these issues. There’s just a cost to it.

We’re doing a mix with local ATVs at our main TVs (in that ecosystem for better or worse) where we want better picture with the audio going back the audio matrix for ceiling sound and then a video matrix switcher with a few more ATVs and our DTV boxes for our other rooms. If I were really concerned about the absolute best picture I would get local HDDVD players and only watch purchased physical discs. I just see the convenience of ATV, watch purchased movies on the road, etc worth any sacrifice. Then we’ll have our DTV boxes shared on the matrix as well. We are replacing a 1080p matrix system with ceiling speakers in each room except the main TV where we watch movies, which will have surround. Hard to get used to not having the sound coming out of the Ceiling speakers once you get used to it.

If you cut the cord, probably local sources would work. Cable/satellite - a matrix is worth considering. Don’t just look at the cost, compare the cost between the two. The differential may not be as high as you think.

[ejn1]

 

14 minutes ago, Jakelay said:

I agree with this but there is something cool about video distribution and depending on what someone needs to do at each TV, the cost differential isn’t as high as some might expect.  It’s a heart stopping moment when you first see the cost of video distribution but if you watch TV the old fashioned way via set top boxes, it’s hard to go back.  Cord cutters are a different story but there are plenty of us that still subscribe to DTV or cable for example and having access to everything in a shared way is very cool. Unfortunately there are a lot of trade offs depending on what system you end up using: some use a lot of compression, some can’t do audio downmixing - none of them are perfect right now so the investment can be overwhelming but there are usually workarounds to most of these issues. There’s just a cost to it.

We’re doing a mix with local ATVs at our main TVs (in that ecosystem for better or worse) where we want better picture and then a video matrix switcher with a few more ATVs for our other rooms. If I were really concerned about the absolute best picture I would get local HDDVD players and only watch purchased physical discs. I just see the convenience of ATV, watch purchased movies on the road, etc worth any sacrifice. Then we’ll have our DTV boxes shared on the matrix as well. We are replacing a 1080p matrix system with ceiling speakers in each room except the main TV where we watch movies. Hard to get used to not having the sound coming out of those puppies now.

If you cut the cord, probably local sources would work. Cable/satellite - a matrix is worth considering. Don’t just look at the cost, compare the cost between the two. The differential may not be as high as you think.

Not knocking anything if you have the money.   I haven't priced it lately but not sure how it cannot be that much more on a "relative" comparison plus has the risk to become obsolete fast with new TV resolutions and tech changes.   Maybe its like solar panels with a 20 year breakeven     Personally I would spend my money on higher quality speakers, amplifiers, etc on the audio side and then next on the room treatment side.   Put a satellite box at every TV if you don't want to cut the cord and still a lot cheaper I would think.   I keep ATVs and Rokus for my TVs but keep all purchased movies on the ATVs to take on the road as you say.   

[Pounce]

If you have a video wall, like to tile live cable channels or need to sync a bunch of TV's for a party it makes sense maybe, but I'd suggest that anyone save their money and accept lower quality for the distributed. Then have high quality local sources.

Solutions like Videostorm can get you the "just enough" features for meeting the main goals of distributed for regular casual viewing on Nvidia Shield's. Those Shields then get you DolbyVision and Atmos locally for Netlfix and Amazon and really anything else that can stream... including HDhomerun OTA channels.

I'm finding Netflix and Amazon HDR 4k programs with Atmos on Shields to be very very close in quality to discs played from an Oppo. I'm actually very impressed with the resolution and lack of artifacts.

 

[ejn1]

7 minutes ago, Pounce said:

If you have a video wall, like to tile live cable channels or need to sync a bunch of TV's for a party it makes sense maybe, but I'd suggest that anyone save their money and accept lower quality for the distributed. Then have high quality local sources.

Solutions like Videostorm can get you the "just enough" features for meeting the main goals of distributed for regular casual viewing on Nvidia Shield's. Those Shields then get you DolbyVision and Atmos locally for Netlfix and Amazon and really anything else that can stream... including HDhomerun OTA channels.

I'm finding Netflix and Amazon HDR 4k programs with Atmos on Shields to be very very close in quality to discs played from an Oppo. I'm actually very impressed with the resolution and lack of artifacts.

 

Interesting.   You're saying a Nvidia Shield via streaming Netflix can almost match a Oppo 4k DVD player via 4k disk?   Wow, would have never thought that.   Is this the shield player to get?

https://www.amazon.com/NVIDIA-Shield-Android-Streaming-Performance/dp/B07YP9FBMM/ref=pd_lpo_504_t_0/143-4276189-9697163?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B07YP9FBMM&pd_rd_r=6006a579-59f7-4341-bb5a-0c3850833029&pd_rd_w=CHLT3&pd_rd_wg=uKr5I&pf_rd_p=7b36d496-f366-4631-94d3-61b87b52511b&pf_rd_r=VAK7K67F7ZGXNT43C6Z7&psc=1&refRID=VAK7K67F7ZGXNT43C6Z7

 

[Pounce]

9 minutes ago, ejn1 said:

Interesting.   You're saying a Nvidia Shield via streaming Netflix can almost match a Oppo 4k DVD player via 4k disk?   Wow, would have never thought that.   Is this the shield player to get?

https://www.amazon.com/NVIDIA-Shield-Android-Streaming-Performance/dp/B07YP9FBMM/ref=pd_lpo_504_t_0/143-4276189-9697163?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B07YP9FBMM&pd_rd_r=6006a579-59f7-4341-bb5a-0c3850833029&pd_rd_w=CHLT3&pd_rd_wg=uKr5I&pf_rd_p=7b36d496-f366-4631-94d3-61b87b52511b&pf_rd_r=VAK7K67F7ZGXNT43C6Z7&psc=1&refRID=VAK7K67F7ZGXNT43C6Z7

 

Yes, that's the one. They have been out of stock for a while due to Covid. I'd snatch them up while you can. You want the 2019 Pro version. Don't get the stick version. You want the USB on the Shield so you can control it with the IrUSB dongle.

The quality is very good for the shows that support the HDR/DolbyVision and Atmos. The audio is higher bandwidth on the disc, but I'd wager than most people would never notice in a typical room or without the ability to A/B test it. There are very few devices that support Atmos from Netflix and this is one of them. Probably the best one at the moment. I've got 75" and 82" 4k TV's running them.

The Apple TV 4k is also very good. We just aren't an Apple household and I like the control that's possible with the Shield.

[ejn1]

2 minutes ago, Pounce said:

Yes, that's the one. They have been out of stock for a while due to Covid. I'd snatch them up while you can. You want the 2019 Pro version. Don't get the stick version. You want the USB on the Shield so you can control it with the IrUSB dongle.

The quality is very good for the shows that support the HDR/DolbyVision and Atmos. The audio is higher bandwidth on the disc, but I'd wager than most people would never notice in a typical room or without the ability to A/B test it. There are very few devices that support Atmos from Netflix and this is one of them. Probably the best one at the moment. I've got 75" and 82" 4k TV's running them.

The Apple TV 4k is also very good. We just aren't an Apple household and I like the control that's possible with the Shield.

Thanks for the info.   We have ATV 4k's throughout so have been happy with 4k / Atmos performance but not on par with my Oppo.   On my 113in screen in 4K you can still see degradation in blacks and occasional pixelation with the ATV.    Will have to try one of the shields eventually.  

[Pounce]

1 minute ago, ejn1 said:

Thanks for the info.   We have ATV 4k's throughout so have been happy with 4k / Atmos performance but not on par with my Oppo.   On my 113in screen in 4K you can still see degradation in blacks and occasional pixelation with the ATV.    Will have to try one of the shields eventually.  

What projector? Maybe you need an HDFury Vertex.

[ejn1]

5 minutes ago, Pounce said:

What projector? Maybe you need an HDFury Vertex.

I have a JVC RS400 so 4K is via eshift.   No issue with pixelation on the Oppo, just via stream i can see a tad degradation in blacks.   Not a big deal but a drop from the Oppo for sure.   I have a long HDMI run of around 50ft so use fiber with HDMI baluns to get full 18Gbps transmission capability.   I'm sure tech has improved in this space eg HDFury.

[Pounce]

1 minute ago, ejn1 said:

 I'm tech as improved in this space eg HDFury.

Did not understand that.

Obviously internet connectivity and the like contributes to picture issues. If you are a curious sort you can test the same time slice a day apart and at different times to see if its the content or the delivery of the content.

That Vertex device is working some impressive magic for Projectors.

https://www.hdfury.com/enjoy-dynamic-dv-content-from-lldv-source-on-any-hdr10-display/

[ejn1]

15 minutes ago, Pounce said:

Did not understand that.

Obviously internet connectivity and the like contributes to picture issues. If you are a curious sort you can test the same time slice a day apart and at different times to see if its the content or the delivery of the content.

That Vertex device is working some impressive magic for Projectors.

https://www.hdfury.com/enjoy-dynamic-dv-content-from-lldv-source-on-any-hdr10-display/

sorry typo "I'm sure tech has improved..."

Streaming is just coming in with more compression vs disc is my take.   I don't think upscaling is the issue as my Anthem AV Pre and JVC do a decent upscaling job.  HDFury makes great stuff, might have to see what it can do.   My projector is still solid but can't really push the lumens to do HDR10 without losing some shadow detail. It's now 5-6 years old so native 4K with a bit more lumens output can be found these days I'm sure.

[AhViaMusicom]

OK, first I am enjoying and learning...  also i dont even know what the Nvidia Shield 2019 pro is, but i bought one by following the link above. Goofy, but a click to a "buy it now" is too much for me to pass! Any way, i'll figure that out. I love new tech.

NOW, I want to be able to play the same source throughout my house and outside and have it and the audio be synchronized. Ive done this with cable and DTV boxes at each location and it isnt always in sync. Most frequently it is a DTV DVR on one tv (the main that feeds audio through the house) and the others. I also want to be able to play video on all tvs and the same audio through the house. For example, Im having a sporting event party and want to watch the same game (in sync) all through the house and when commercials come on, i want to listen to music in all rooms, or maybe in some rooms. Or maybe i want to leave the sporting even on on all tvs but i want a different even on the main tv and its audio playing everywhere else. Im also considering multiple tvs on one wall.

All of my tvs are 4k and I upgrade them when it makes sense and there is a decent enough advancement. All of my audio equipment is decent, with my main room being the best. Receivers in house are all Denon and speakers are B&W. Main room is Pioneer Elite with Rotel amplification and some large floor standing B&Ws. Each room has its own sub as well. I take it pretty seriously, but havent made the jump to easy to control automation. I can run everything just fine, but literally no other human being can.

Regarding cutting the cord, Im close now. Contractor cut the DTV line and I havent missed it. 4K ATV with ATTNow is working just fine.

[eggzlot]

8 hours ago, AhViaMusicom said:

OK, first I am enjoying and learning...  also i dont even know what the Nvidia Shield 2019 pro is, but i bought one by following the link above. Goofy, but a click to a "buy it now" is too much for me to pass! Any way, i'll figure that out. I love new tech.

NOW, I want to be able to play the same source throughout my house and outside and have it and the audio be synchronized. Ive done this with cable and DTV boxes at each location and it isnt always in sync. Most frequently it is a DTV DVR on one tv (the main that feeds audio through the house) and the others. I also want to be able to play video on all tvs and the same audio through the house. For example, Im having a sporting event party and want to watch the same game (in sync) all through the house and when commercials come on, i want to listen to music in all rooms, or maybe in some rooms. Or maybe i want to leave the sporting even on on all tvs but i want a different even on the main tv and its audio playing everywhere else. Im also considering multiple tvs on one wall.

All of my tvs are 4k and I upgrade them when it makes sense and there is a decent enough advancement. All of my audio equipment is decent, with my main room being the best. Receivers in house are all Denon and speakers are B&W. Main room is Pioneer Elite with Rotel amplification and some large floor standing B&Ws. Each room has its own sub as well. I take it pretty seriously, but havent made the jump to easy to control automation. I can run everything just fine, but literally no other human being can.

Regarding cutting the cord, Im close now. Contractor cut the DTV line and I havent missed it. 4K ATV with ATTNow is working just fine.

regardless of sources (ATV, DTV, etc) if you want multiple tvs in/out of the house to be in sync with video and audio, a matrix is your best solution.

A matrix is also helpful so there are less boxes behind TVs, could help for installation and aesthetic purposes.  A matrix is also helpful if you have a super large house - lets say you have 5 people in the house and 12 TVs.  to get all the content you need, you need a Shield and Apple TV behind all TVs (as an example) - so now you are managing 24 boxes, forget a password on an ATV app and need to reset the password, now go reset it 12 times.  If you have a matrix you could have 1 ATV per user in the house so that would only be 5 vs 12.  And same with the shield, so you go from 24 boxes to 10 boxes (1 AFT and 1 Shield per person in the house).  Maybe there is only 1 reason you want an ATV for 1 app that you like but no one else in the family, then you only need 1 ATV not 12 and you can watch that content in any room.

At one point I cut the cord (I went back to cable) and started with Hulu.  Hulu was way better on a Roku.  I have a 2 person house, so I only had to buy 1 Roku and put it in my matrix and I now had live tv in every room in the house.  Its my wife and I and we usually watch TV together hence the need for only 1.  But it was easy, I didn't need 5 Rokus.  And luckily, we went back to cable, so I dont have 5 Roku's at each TV collecting dust now.

It certainly is a costly decision to get a matrix, but if the money isnt the objection, the flexibility is great

There are also a lot of people who say a matrix will impact the quality of your viewing experience with decompression, noise, etc.  I've had a matrix for years, and people still want to come to my house to watch the Super Bowl and other big sporting events.  We also do movie nights with friends, etc.  Not 1 person has said "wait is that an artifact from a compressed digital noise"?  Because the technical manual says its there, people obsess over it and want "the best" so they can say they have it.  In the real world, 99% of the human eye can not detect any of that stuff.  So to me, its a small trade off for the conveniences I listed above.

[WholeHomeControl]

On 6/8/2020 at 9:23 PM, DLite said:

OMG, I wish I had gotten that advice 3 years ago, when we were doing our remodel!  Dealing with baluns has been a huge pain.

If you’ve been having reliability issues, try AV Pro HDMI extenders. They are pricey, but seem to be the most reliable performers on the market.