AVR for extra audio zone

[Jakelay]

Trying to think through our new project and budget and I’m wondering if the following would work.

We would have a Triad 24x24 audio matrix and a Denon AVRX4500 with 3 zone capability. We only have 5.1 in our family room (horrible acoustics so anything more would be wasted) so we would have the amps to run an additional 2 channel zone through the AVR without having to add another 8 zone Triad amp. This would save quite a bit of money.

I’m trying to keep within a budget so adding another Triad 8 zone amp is really overkill for just one, least used zone.

We have 10 total zones with 1 being the AVR so really 9 sets of ceiling speakers that we need amps for.

Would it work if we were to get the 8 zone amp, run one zone for the multi channel through the Denon AVR (doing this already) and then have zone 2 on the AVR drive one additional zone? We rarely use all 9 zones but if we’re going to spend the money on a system upgrade, I’d like to get the functionality we are used to instead of having to combine one of the zones or spend a lot extra for an additional 8 zone amp for something rarely used but nice to have.

Thoughts on this approach?

Thanks again!

 

[mujtaba.khokhar]

Trying to think through our new project and budget and I’m wondering if the following would work.
We would have a Triad 24x24 audio matrix and a Denon AVRX4500 with 3 zone capability. We only have 5.1 in our family room (horrible acoustics so anything more would be wasted) so we would have the amps to run an additional 2 channel zone through the AVR without having to add another 8 zone Triad amp. This would save quite a bit of money.
I’m trying to keep within a budget so adding another Triad 8 zone amp is really overkill for just one, least used zone.
We have 10 total zones with 1 being the AVR so really 9 sets of ceiling speakers that we need amps for.
Would it work if we were to get the 8 zone amp, run one zone for the multi channel through the Denon AVR (doing this already) and then have zone 2 on the AVR drive one additional zone? We rarely use all 9 zones but if we’re going to spend the money on a system upgrade, I’d like to get the functionality we are used to instead of having to combine one of the zones or spend a lot extra for an additional 8 zone amp for something rarely used but nice to have.
Thoughts on this approach?
Thanks again!
 

Using avrs can be messy, but they do work.

What about just getting a single zone triad amp?

Or the 4 zone?

Or a second hand amp?

I’m sure if you post in the wtb section something will come up.

Thanks

M


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mstafford388]

You can definitely make it work, just have to figure out how to feed audio to the receiver from a controller assuming you're using mostly Control4 streaming services.  It may need to be analog audio as well as a lot of receivers won't down convert HDMI audio for zone2.  If you are feeding HDMI as well from a controller there will need to be a driver/programming added to tell the system to use the analog stream instead.  Can be kind of tricky if a programmer hasn't done it before but it works when configured properly.  

[Jakelay]

Both great suggestions - thanks!

I had considered another single amp but since the Denon already has the second zone built it I figured that would probably be the least expensive option if it doesn't require too much programming and since the AVR is already pretty pricey.

Regarding the connections - I figured we would run a 2 channel AV out from the Triad 24x24 matrix and run it into one of the RCA inputs (CD Player for example) and use that as the source.  Then just use the extra 2 speaker connectors on the Denon directly to the speakers in that zone and select that source (i.e. CD) to power those speakers.  In my mind (which is where I may be wrong) I would think that the audio matrix feeding into that input source would allow me to listen to whatever is going through the matrix and the installer would just program that zone to work off of that amp with the matrixed source going into it.

Am I getting this right or am I oversimplifying it and it's way more complicated?

Thanks again- super helpful info so far!

 

[mujtaba.khokhar]

Both great suggestions - thanks!
I had considered another single amp but since the Denon already has the second zone built it I figured that would probably be the least expensive option if it doesn't require too much programming and since the AVR is already pretty pricey.
Regarding the connections - I figured we would run a 2 channel AV out from the Triad 24x24 matrix and run it into one of the RCA inputs (CD Player for example) and use that as the source.  Then just use the extra 2 speaker connectors on the Denon directly to the speakers in that zone and select that source (i.e. CD) to power those speakers.  In my mind (which is where I may be wrong) I would think that the audio matrix feeding into that input source would allow me to listen to whatever is going through the matrix and the installer would just program that zone to work off of that amp with the matrixed source going into it.
Am I getting this right or am I oversimplifying it and it's way more complicated?
Thanks again- super helpful info so far!
 

That’s basically it

You might also have to go into to the amp assignment settings and assign the CD input to zone 2

Whoever is doing the programming will then need to bind the room and volume control to zone 2 of the amp.

One some avrs you can also set zone to be on independently of zone 1

Thanks
M


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jakelay]

Excellent. Thanks so much everyone!

[WholeHomeControl]

16 hours ago, Jakelay said:

Regarding the connections - I figured we would run a 2 channel AV out from the Triad 24x24 matrix and run it into one of the RCA inputs (CD Player for example) and use that as the source.  Then just use the extra 2 speaker connectors on the Denon directly to the speakers in that zone and select that source (i.e. CD) to power those speakers.  In my mind (which is where I may be wrong) I would think that the audio matrix feeding into that input source would allow me to listen to whatever is going through the matrix and the installer would just program that zone to work off of that amp with the matrixed source going into it.

There is one minor limitation here that may not impact you practically, but you should be aware. 

Generally, every zone connected through the Triad matrix has the ability to play its own separate source.  That is, zone A can listen to source X, zone B can listen to source Y, etc.

However, the two zones fed through the Denon will not be able to play separate sources from the Triad simultaneously.  That is, if you are playing source X (via the Triad) in the Denon's main zone, you cannot play source Y (via the Triad) in the Denon's zone 2.  This is for the simple reason that you have only one physical path from the Triad to the Denon.

If the receiver has two analog audio inputs, you could in theory run two connections from the Triad to the receiver to overcome this limitation.  However, this is seldom done in practice and may not work reliably.

[Jakelay]

Interesting. Really good point I hadn’t thought of.
 

I’m thinking that I would likely not run into this as the one source would be a direct out from the video matrix for the multichannel audio and video feed for that source. The second source would be coming from the Triad matrix for audio only.
 

In this case, scenario 1, we wouldn’t be able to watch TV in that room and listen to a different music source simultaneously in that same room but we’ve never done that and I don’t really see a need for that (I know some people like that option for parties, etc but not really important to us in particular).

Scenario 2: We should be able to listen to the same audio in the room above and zone 2 simultaneously though right? Shared source in both zones from the Triad matrix.

Scenario 3: We should also be able to watch/listen to source 1 in one room (source is direct feed from video matrix) and listen to audio only from source 2 from the Triad matrix source input.

Scenario 4: try running a separate audio out from the Triad as a mother source I put for the AVR and bind each of the Triad inputs to a separate room/zone. But you are saying that may create problems? Just curious what those might be. I don’t even think I need to go this route but it would be good to know.

Thanks again for all the input. Still new to C4 and I know that one ‘fix’ can cascade into unintended consequences that I could never conceive of so your shared experience helps greatly!

[HRT]

6 hours ago, WholeHomeControl said:

There is one minor limitation here that may not impact you practically, but you should be aware. 

Generally, every zone connected through the Triad matrix has the ability to play its own separate source.  That is, zone A can listen to source X, zone B can listen to source Y, etc.

However, the two zones fed through the Denon will not be able to play separate sources from the Triad simultaneously.  That is, if you are playing source X (via the Triad) in the Denon's main zone, you cannot play source Y (via the Triad) in the Denon's zone 2.  This is for the simple reason that you have only one physical path from the Triad to the Denon.

If the receiver has two analog audio inputs, you could in theory run two connections from the Triad to the receiver to overcome this limitation.  However, this is seldom done in practice and may not work reliably.

This isn't true at all. While I highly recommend against using a zone 2 for anything other than custom programming for an all stereo situation with a room too close to a 5.1/7.1 zone or a small two room setup. He has a 24 zone triad, so he can definitely send two independent zone outs from the triad to the denon. You have to use the AV path-setter driver to delineate which zone uses which zone out from the triad matrix.

The main two issues with using a zone 2 in this scenario are turn on time (your triad zone directly to an amp are instantaneous while a denon zone 2 takes about 6-7 seconds before you will hear audio), not being able to use this zone in an announcement due to this delay.

Other thing to mention if you are using the denon for video processing, on the analog input you use for the triad zone out for the main 5.1 room use the options button to set the video to your preferred video source, that way you will have that video still up when you choose music as lots of people like to have a ball game on but with music.

[WholeHomeControl]

4 minutes ago, HRT said:

This isn't true at all.

What, exactly, isn't true at all?   Are you referring to the entire post or the last sentence?

[HRT]

1 minute ago, WholeHomeControl said:

What, exactly, isn't true at all?   Are you referring to the entire post or the last sentence?

Mainly the sentence in bold, but more your explanation of it not working. Personally I would never set a system up that way but it does work. Even when the didn't have the ability to make it work, you could use a separate zone 2 driver  to alleviate the path issues (lots of our old jobs from the mid 2000's used zone 2's and 3's for entry level condo systems)

[WholeHomeControl]

3 minutes ago, HRT said:

Mainly the sentence in bold, but more your explanation of it not working. Personally I would never set a system up that way but it does work. Even when the didn't have the ability to make it work, you could use a separate zone 2 driver  to alleviate the path issues (lots of our old jobs from the mid 2000's used zone 2's and 3's for entry level condo systems)

The explanation was this:  if you have a single connection from the Triad to the Denon, then you cannot simultaneously play two separate sources through the Triad to the two zones connected to the Denon.  This is categorically true.  It's just simple physics!

[HRT]

1 minute ago, WholeHomeControl said:

The explanation was this:  if you have a single connection from the Triad to the Denon, then you cannot simultaneously play two separate sources through the Triad to the two zones connected to the Denon.  This is categorically true.  It's just simple physics!

He has a 24 zone triad with only 8 zones used, so he clearly has the ability to run a second set of analog cables to the denon as that's what he asked to do. Just trying to help the guy not get confused by misleading posts.

Sure that is pretty simple, but you said However, the two zones fed through the Denon will not be able to play separate sources from the Triad simultaneously.

[WholeHomeControl]

34 minutes ago, HRT said:

Sure that is pretty simple, but you said However, the two zones fed through the Denon will not be able to play separate sources from the Triad simultaneously.

Read above my statement in the response I was quoting.  The proposed configuration I was was responding to involved a single connection from the Triad.

If you read my whole post, the only thing you actually are disagreeing with is my statement that it may not work reliably with two separate feeds. 

I've avoided implementing things this way so cannot say from experience that it would be unreliable.  However, I can say that the AV pathing functions, though much improved in the 3.x redo, have been a bit of a weak link in the system.  So, I would advise against pushing things this way.  It's a form of double matrixing (even with the path setter driver.)

 

 

[Jakelay]

I think I understand all of this now - thank you both! I have plenty of open outputs on the Triad matrix so I could run two to the AVR and avoid the issue you mentioned above. Really this zone is so rarely used - it’s a living room with the only thing missing being the plastic covers on the couch if you catch my drift - we’re never in there. 
 

that’s why I really don’t want to spend $1,000+ on another amp and programming for that zone, just trying to use what we’ve got on those super rare occasions we have company over. We won’t need announcements, etc that I can foresee since we’re never in there so the delay is not a big deal either.

Frankly, if I couldn’t get this to work, I was just going to move our Sonos beam into that room for audio. Just seems like a waste if we can do it this way through C4 and the AVR and deal with less than perfect but certainly usable.

I do appreciate both of you giving your recommendations and clarifying. This was super helpful!

 

[WholeHomeControl]

Just to be sure, if I understand correctly, you already have the AVRX4500. If not, you could certainly go with a more modest unit to save some bucks.

[Jakelay]

1 hour ago, WholeHomeControl said:

Just to be sure, if I understand correctly, you already have the AVRX4500. If not, you could certainly go with a more modest unit to save some bucks.

In the process of figuring that out. Any recommendations for an alternative?

Just talked to the dealer about the above and he’s got a dual channel amp he is going to use that’s fairly inexpensive but will give me feedback through the C4 system, app, etc. Not very pricey but a better alternative to what I was trying to rig up with the AVR. Thanks again for all of your input!

[WholeHomeControl]

For the AVR, if your dealer likes Denon then it would be good to stay where they’re comfortable.  I don’t sell Denon (I lean to Sony for AVRs), but for what you describe I would look at the X1600H (or perhaps the X2600H for the better video processing/options.)

I’m just thinking that you don’t need any more channels/zones; you don’t need the extra HDMI output; and you don’t need lots of power, etc, for a room with lousy acoustics.  So, why trade up from there?  Maybe ask your dealer what you’d be missing with that model. 

[Jakelay]

You may be right about all of that. I’m thinking we may not even send any video through the AVR, just audio and send the video straight from the matrix so I don’t think I need to worry about the best video processing.

Thanks for the suggestion!