Reliability & Ongoing Costs

[esanto1]

Hi,

I"m considering a C4 system specifically for security so was looking to only do alarm integration and maybe get a DS2 mini doorbell as well. The only other thing I may consider is my MyAir controller since the manufacturer's one is on old hardware that is never updated. A few questions:

- How would the overall stability of this 'simple' system be? I've read a lot about component integration constantly failing but that seems to be more on the AV side which I wouldn't be doing.

- Driver cost. I read that the MyAir driver is about $250. If C4 update their app, are newer drivers full price again or a lesser price since they're just an upgrade?

- What's the experience with Intercom anywhere like? Is it reliable? 

 

Thanks

[JSTRONG]

Yes intercom anywhere and DS2 are very reliable  

I have several control4 homes and I don’t have any Av components falling off line. 
when you hear about that it’s usually 1 of 2 reasons.
 

1: customer didn’t want to upgrade their network components and have network issues. Or just an improperly configured network  

2: a diy person trying to program the system without the proper tools and experience. 

[Don Cohen]

I am posting both as a new employee of a Control4/Home Integration company, but also as an end-user of this technology.

We had Control4 retro-fitted in our home several months ago, including Light Control, 2 Thermostats, 2 Surveillance Cameras, a DS2-Mini, Smart Locks for 3 Doors, 2 AV Rooms, including one complex Theater Room, and I added Garage Door Control as well.

Overall, I have found the system to be incredibly useful and functional, with minimal technical glitches.  It's only been 3-4 months, so there is that.

The only aspect of this that I'm not especially pleased with is the DS2-Mini/Intercom Anywhere App.  They work, but here are where they fall short for me:

1.  The Night Mode camera of the DS2-Mini is dramatically inferior to what I get with the 2 Luma Surveillance Cameras.  I've attached a Screenshot from the Luma NVR which demonstrates this.  Note: there are no lights on for the other Surveillance Cameras, yet what they show is dramatically clearer.

2.  Intercom Anywhere works, but it is cumbersome, mainly because of the App.  So if someone rings the bell, my Phone does start ringing, but then I have to take it out of my pocket, unlock it, tap the notification to open the I.A. App, and then tap the button to answer the call.  This takes way too long, and anyone at the door may have already walked away.  If it worked like a regular phone call, it would be much better, and I have suggested this to them.

3.  The DS2-mini does have a "motion sensor" function, but this is based on changes in the image, and isn't a conventional motion sensor as such.  I have mine programmed to send a snapshot email when there is motion detected in the small area as someone would get to the steps.  It works, but on partly cloudy days, where the sun is coming and going from behind the clouds, I can be inundated with many "false positive" emails.  I have since turned this off, and bought a separate Motion Sensor for this purpose.

If I were starting over, I would take a serious look at other Door Station options.  I'm not saying any of them are better, as I haven't yet done the research, but this is the only aspect of this new system that I'm not happy with.  For everything else, it is really fantastic, and I'm really enjoying it.

[eggzlot]

1 hour ago, Don Cohen said:

I am posting both as a new employee of a Control4/Home Integration company, but also as an end-user of this technology.

We had Control4 retro-fitted in our home several months ago, including Light Control, 2 Thermostats, 2 Surveillance Cameras, a DS2-Mini, Smart Locks for 3 Doors, 2 AV Rooms, including one complex Theater Room, and I added Garage Door Control as well.

Overall, I have found the system to be incredibly useful and functional, with minimal technical glitches.  It's only been 3-4 months, so there is that.

The only aspect of this that I'm not especially pleased with is the DS2-Mini/Intercom Anywhere App.  They work, but here are where they fall short for me:

1.  The Night Mode camera of the DS2-Mini is dramatically inferior to what I get with the 2 Luma Surveillance Cameras.  I've attached a Screenshot from the Luma NVR which demonstrates this.  Note: there are no lights on for the other Surveillance Cameras, yet what they show is dramatically clearer.

2.  Intercom Anywhere works, but it is cumbersome, mainly because of the App.  So if someone rings the bell, my Phone does start ringing, but then I have to take it out of my pocket, unlock it, tap the notification to open the I.A. App, and then tap the button to answer the call.  This takes way too long, and anyone at the door may have already walked away.  If it worked like a regular phone call, it would be much better, and I have suggested this to them.

3.  The DS2-mini does have a "motion sensor" function, but this is based on changes in the image, and isn't a conventional motion sensor as such.  I have mine programmed to send a snapshot email when there is motion detected in the small area as someone would get to the steps.  It works, but on partly cloudy days, where the sun is coming and going from behind the clouds, I can be inundated with many "false positive" emails.  I have since turned this off, and bought a separate Motion Sensor for this purpose.

If I were starting over, I would take a serious look at other Door Station options.  I'm not saying any of them are better, as I haven't yet done the research, but this is the only aspect of this new system that I'm not happy with.  For everything else, it is really fantastic, and I'm really enjoying it.

I use a 2n Helios door station and you can have notifications 2 ways - 1 as a phone call, no video but it looks like an incoming call (from caller ID you know its your doorstation) and you can slide/answer it very quickly.  The other option is what you mention, but using the 2n app vs the IA app.  Being the DS2 is just a 2n device, I would be interested if option one is available to you in the UI or if they removed it from the customer firmware option.

Also are there any IR's on the DS2?   Do you have IR's on those other cameras?  The IRs could be why the other cameras are better.

[eggzlot]

9 hours ago, esanto1 said:

Hi,

I"m considering a C4 system specifically for security so was looking to only do alarm integration and maybe get a DS2 mini doorbell as well. The only other thing I may consider is my MyAir controller since the manufacturer's one is on old hardware that is never updated. A few questions:

- How would the overall stability of this 'simple' system be? I've read a lot about component integration constantly failing but that seems to be more on the AV side which I wouldn't be doing.

- Driver cost. I read that the MyAir driver is about $250. If C4 update their app, are newer drivers full price again or a lesser price since they're just an upgrade?

- What's the experience with Intercom anywhere like? Is it reliable? 

 

Thanks

driver costs are "one time" costs.  To update the C4 OS your dealer may (aka likely will) charge for time/labor involved.  If a C4 update breaks a driver,  you may need to buy a new driver so keep that in mind.

For such a simple system, I'd set it and forget it.  Do not upgrade the C4 OS, get your driver for your air system and you should be able to forget about it and just have it work.  Always be the first to update an OS, add all new toys under the sun and yes, problems may pop up.  Set up alarm/DS2 and MyAir is simple - just set it up and lose the key and don't mess and you'll be fine with only yearly costs for 4sight.

[therockhr]

9 hours ago, esanto1 said:

Hi,

I"m considering a C4 system specifically for security so was looking to only do alarm integration and maybe get a DS2 mini doorbell as well. The only other thing I may consider is my MyAir controller since the manufacturer's one is on old hardware that is never updated. A few questions:

- How would the overall stability of this 'simple' system be? I've read a lot about component integration constantly failing but that seems to be more on the AV side which I wouldn't be doing.

- Driver cost. I read that the MyAir driver is about $250. If C4 update their app, are newer drivers full price again or a lesser price since they're just an upgrade?

- What's the experience with Intercom anywhere like? Is it reliable? 

 

Thanks

If you dont have any intention of doing AV I would find another system. There are others that are cheaper and better for what you want. AV is where Control4 really shines.

[Don Cohen]

12 minutes ago, eggzlot said:

I use a 2n Helios door station and you can have notifications 2 ways - 1 as a phone call, no video but it looks like an incoming call (from caller ID you know its your doorstation) and you can slide/answer it very quickly.  The other option is what you mention, but using the 2n app vs the IA app.  Being the DS2 is just a 2n device, I would be interested if option one is available to you in the UI or if they removed it from the customer firmware option.

Also are there any IR's on the DS2?   Do you have IR's on those other cameras?  The IRs could be why the other cameras are better.

Thanks for the reply.

Regarding IR: I just checked the DS2-MIni Data Sheet, and it does state "Yes" for "Camera IR Night Vision".  I was a bit surprised at that. The Luma's definitely do have IR.  What the difference is here, I don't know, but as the capture I posted demonstrates one is "night and day" different from the other (yes, I saw what I did there!).

On the Intercom Anywhere issue, that is a very interesting idea.  I just looked at properties in Composer Pro for both the DS2 and the "Control4 DS2 Intercom" underneath it, and don't see anything that would suggest the functionality you're describing.

How does it appear, what properties specifically, for the 2n Helios you're describing, that allows you to enable this feature?

[ILoveC4]

9 minutes ago, therockhr said:

If you dont have any intention of doing AV I would find another system. There are others that are cheaper and better for what you want. AV is where Control4 really shines.

I agree 100%.

[eggzlot]

39 minutes ago, Don Cohen said:

Thanks for the reply.

Regarding IR: I just checked the DS2-MIni Data Sheet, and it does state "Yes" for "Camera IR Night Vision".  I was a bit surprised at that. The Luma's definitely do have IR.  What the difference is here, I don't know, but as the capture I posted demonstrates one is "night and day" different from the other (yes, I saw what I did there!).

On the Intercom Anywhere issue, that is a very interesting idea.  I just looked at properties in Composer Pro for both the DS2 and the "Control4 DS2 Intercom" underneath it, and don't see anything that would suggest the functionality you're describing.

How does it appear, what properties specifically, for the 2n Helios you're describing, that allows you to enable this feature?

For the 2nHelios I think I set that up in the UI of the device itself.  I go to the IP address of the door station and configured it via a Web Browser, nothing in C4/Composer HE.  I dont have Pro, just Composer HE.  and I was able to do it

Are your IR's enabled on the DS2 mini?  Again not in Composer, go into the camera itself via the IP in a Web browser and look to configure.  There should be ample camera settings you can configure (for really any major brand camera) if you log into the camera itself.  also not sure if Camera IR night vision is marketing speak or it actually has IRs on it.  I've never seen a DS2 in person.  I do not see any clearly LED IR's on the faceplate but again it could be behind the glass.

[eggzlot]

53 minutes ago, therockhr said:

If you dont have any intention of doing AV I would find another system. There are others that are cheaper and better for what you want. AV is where Control4 really shines.

if you want to mix a doorstation/intercom in that really limits down your options - if you want heat and an alarm system involved.  lots of things will do heat.  lots of things will do alarms.  a few do doorstations/intercoms.  Finding something to do all 3 likely puts you towards C4, Savant, Elan, etc.

though the user didnt say how they want to interact with the intercom - to indoor touchscreens or just mobile/tablet devices so that may open it up a bit.

[esanto1]

2 hours ago, therockhr said:

If you dont have any intention of doing AV I would find another system. There are others that are cheaper and better for what you want. AV is where Control4 really shines.

What other options are there?

i currently use sonos for audio and have two existing zones that I’m considering expanding to four. It’s simpler to use as is and I’ve read it doesn’t integrate fully with C4. Going back to my original post, I’m not too interested in doing AV because I don’t want to be forking out for lots of drivers. So, having separate apps for audio (Sonos/Spotify) and video (Netflix etc) is fine. 

One main reason I’m focusing on security/alarm integration is that my wife would like to be notified if our alarm was triggered when we weren’t home. I read that C4 can not only do this but also tells you which zone was triggered. Does the system have a limitation on the number of zones that can be attached? For example my existing alarm has a 16zone limit but when we built our house we had reed switches put in all external doors and windows which is more than 16 so the builder had to group zones. If C4 can read each independently, that’s great! 
Is the DS2 mini 24x7 recording or only motion when the doorbell is pressed? Where does it store the video, on the controller? This too would allow us to be notified if someone came or rang the doorbell when we weren’t home. Our current doorbell does have video but only if pressed and it can’t send it to me. Just local storage.

At some point in the future, I would also like to do lighting. I like consistency though so won’t be looking to change light switches. My approach is “change all of them or change none”. As our house is still new, change none appeals to me so I’m looking to use the C4 wireless pucks that sit in the wall behind existing light switches. Does anyone have experience with them and are they reliable? As it’s an existing house, I can’t get cat5/6 to light switches.

I have a full Unifi network with AP’s ceiling mounted and POE switches, a USG and CK1. Just in case anyone if wondering about the network 

Options are limited especially in Australia. Some products don’t do business here anymore. I know something like SimpliSafe could be considered an alternative but that’s like installing a new alarm - additional sensors and reed switches on all the doors and windows I want to monitor. I find this redundant as my existing alarm has it already. That’s why C4 appealed to me in this respect, it can take what I have , integrate with it and provide the functionality I’m looking for. ADT have something similar but it’s like SimpliSafe and requires installing new components. 

The whole MyAir thing is just a pain. The installers put in a locked down android tablet that can only be updated to a certain point then stops updating so it doesn’t break the MyAir app. It’s $600 to upgrade the tablet so was thinking I could just get rid of the MyAir tablet and roll the app into C4 and have one tablet serve multiple purposes. The current one is limited and you can’t install other apps on it because it runs out of memory quickly.

My initial objective was to improve security by getting notified of alarm triggers, doorbell presses, etc but I also found I could solve problems like the MyAir one along the way. If there are other ways of solving this, be glad to hear. 

[eggzlot]

1 hour ago, esanto1 said:

What other options are there?

i currently use sonos for audio and have two existing zones that I’m considering expanding to four. It’s simpler to use as is and I’ve read it doesn’t integrate fully with C4. Going back to my original post, I’m not too interested in doing AV because I don’t want to be forking out for lots of drivers. So, having separate apps for audio (Sonos/Spotify) and video (Netflix etc) is fine. 

One main reason I’m focusing on security/alarm integration is that my wife would like to be notified if our alarm was triggered when we weren’t home. I read that C4 can not only do this but also tells you which zone was triggered. Does the system have a limitation on the number of zones that can be attached? For example my existing alarm has a 16zone limit but when we built our house we had reed switches put in all external doors and windows which is more than 16 so the builder had to group zones. If C4 can read each independently, that’s great! 
Is the DS2 mini 24x7 recording or only motion when the doorbell is pressed? Where does it store the video, on the controller? This too would allow us to be notified if someone came or rang the doorbell when we weren’t home. Our current doorbell does have video but only if pressed and it can’t send it to me. Just local storage.

At some point in the future, I would also like to do lighting. I like consistency though so won’t be looking to change light switches. My approach is “change all of them or change none”. As our house is still new, change none appeals to me so I’m looking to use the C4 wireless pucks that sit in the wall behind existing light switches. Does anyone have experience with them and are they reliable? As it’s an existing house, I can’t get cat5/6 to light switches.

I have a full Unifi network with AP’s ceiling mounted and POE switches, a USG and CK1. Just in case anyone if wondering about the network 

Options are limited especially in Australia. Some products don’t do business here anymore. I know something like SimpliSafe could be considered an alternative but that’s like installing a new alarm - additional sensors and reed switches on all the doors and windows I want to monitor. I find this redundant as my existing alarm has it already. That’s why C4 appealed to me in this respect, it can take what I have , integrate with it and provide the functionality I’m looking for. ADT have something similar but it’s like SimpliSafe and requires installing new components. 

The whole MyAir thing is just a pain. The installers put in a locked down android tablet that can only be updated to a certain point then stops updating so it doesn’t break the MyAir app. It’s $600 to upgrade the tablet so was thinking I could just get rid of the MyAir tablet and roll the app into C4 and have one tablet serve multiple purposes. The current one is limited and you can’t install other apps on it because it runs out of memory quickly.

My initial objective was to improve security by getting notified of alarm triggers, doorbell presses, etc but I also found I could solve problems like the MyAir one along the way. If there are other ways of solving this, be glad to hear. 

Depending on your alarm hardware and the available driver there should be no real limits for 95% of uses.  I have ~40 zones on 1 partition with DSC and no issues at all.

Sonos integrates by use of favorite channels, you cannot surf to find/create new channels via the C4 UI, but if you have favorites created you can easily use C4 to queue those up and play them

 

DS2 can record 24x7 or via motion, but either way requires a stand alone recorder.  You can get an NVR, you can use a NAS, you have options, but you need something.

You will get a lot of mixed reviews on going full Unifi, so I will not go down that road.  

do you also have your alarm professionally monitored?  It is nice to get a text from C4, but when you and your wife are occupied for 2-3 hours, do not see the text, that notice really does you no good.  So personally, my wife and I still have traditional monitoring.  We just get the C4 alert first (before the station calls) so i can pop up cameras, check my interior motion sensors and have a really good sense as to what is going on when central monitoring calls.  i had a false alarm the other day so i told monitoring to not call out the police.  i saw nothing on the cameras, the sensor closed really fast, no internal motions tripped, etc.  so for that having C4 was great.  But I still want that call from monitoring.

[Don Cohen]

6 hours ago, eggzlot said:

For the 2nHelios I think I set that up in the UI of the device itself.  I go to the IP address of the door station and configured it via a Web Browser, nothing in C4/Composer HE.  I dont have Pro, just Composer HE.  and I was able to do it

Are your IR's enabled on the DS2 mini?  Again not in Composer, go into the camera itself via the IP in a Web browser and look to configure.  There should be ample camera settings you can configure (for really any major brand camera) if you log into the camera itself.  also not sure if Camera IR night vision is marketing speak or it actually has IRs on it.  I've never seen a DS2 in person.  I do not see any clearly LED IR's on the faceplate but again it could be behind the glass.

Thanks again.  I have previously logged into the DS2's Web Interface, and have seen how many things can be configured there.  That's in fact where I had configured the Motion Sensing event in my first post in this thread.

Regarding the IR question, I've attached a Screen Capture of the only page I've found that mentions IR, but that seems to be only in reference to the brightness of the IR LED's.

I've also looked through the many, many pages of the web interface, and did find a couple of somewhat cryptic (to me anyway) "2N" references.

If you could specify which pages you have used to gain that other level of functionality, I can check to see if there are corresponding pages for the DS2.

Don

[alanchow]

5 hours ago, esanto1 said:

The whole MyAir thing is just a pain. The installers put in a locked down android tablet that can only be updated to a certain point then stops updating so it doesn’t break the MyAir app. It’s $600 to upgrade the tablet so was thinking I could just get rid of the MyAir tablet and roll the app into C4 and have one tablet serve multiple purposes. The current one is limited and you can’t install other apps on it because it runs out of memory quickly.

You can't remove the MyAir tablet as the driver communications to the tablet for control.

[esanto1]

My current alarm is a Bosch Solution 16. The C4 installer I’m planning to use only works with Ness alarms so I’ll need to switch that out. I don’t mind as I wanted a Ness originally but my builder didn’t use them.

if Sonos integration is limited, hows Spotify integration? I do have a premium plan if that makes a difference.

Regarding the DS2, if with recording option requires an NVR, how does it record after it’s installed if you don’t have anything? It doesn’t I’m guessing? Can it at least do snapshots and email those until I get an NVR? 

[esanto1]

32 minutes ago, alanchow said:

You can't remove the MyAir tablet as the driver communications to the tablet for control.

The tablet is connected via wifi to whatever to control the unit. Does it matter if the tablet is theirs or a C4 one? 

[JSTRONG]

4 minutes ago, esanto1 said:

 

Regarding the DS2, if with recording option requires an NVR, how does it record after it’s installed if you don’t have anything? It doesn’t I’m guessing? Can it at least do snapshots and email those until I get an NVR? 

Yes, the DS2 will email/text you snapshot notifications without any other component. (Other then a Control4 controller)

[JSTRONG]

1 hour ago, Don Cohen said:

Thanks again.  I have previously logged into the DS2's Web Interface, and have seen how many things can be configured there.  That's in fact where I had configured the Motion Sensing event in my first post in this thread.

Regarding the IR question, I've attached a Screen Capture of the only page I've found that mentions IR, but that seems to be only in reference to the brightness of the IR LED's.

I've also looked through the many, many pages of the web interface, and did find a couple of somewhat cryptic (to me anyway) "2N" references.

If you could specify which pages you have used to gain that other level of functionality, I can check to see if there are corresponding pages for the DS2.

Don

I thought I read somewhere not to use the web interface for configuration because it could be overwritten when the driver gets updated since the driver takes priority. (I could be wrong here)

[eggzlot]

1 hour ago, Don Cohen said:

Thanks again.  I have previously logged into the DS2's Web Interface, and have seen how many things can be configured there.  That's in fact where I had configured the Motion Sensing event in my first post in this thread.

Regarding the IR question, I've attached a Screen Capture of the only page I've found that mentions IR, but that seems to be only in reference to the brightness of the IR LED's.

I've also looked through the many, many pages of the web interface, and did find a couple of somewhat cryptic (to me anyway) "2N" references.

If you could specify which pages you have used to gain that other level of functionality, I can check to see if there are corresponding pages for the DS2.

Don

Sorry its in the 2n App itself, not on the Web

It’s the call notification option on the top.

 

 

And that low light performance is dismal.  I’d play around with some of those settings not just keep it at auto.  Adjust a few settings and tweak it to see if you can improve it.  Otherwise it is just a poorly constructed unit.

[alanchow]

15 minutes ago, esanto1 said:

The tablet is connected via wifi to whatever to control the unit. Does it matter if the tablet is theirs or a C4 one? 

Control4 communicates to the MyAir tablet for control.  You can't remove the MyAir tablet as it is core to the system.

[esanto1]

41 minutes ago, alanchow said:

Control4 communicates to the MyAir tablet for control.  You can't remove the MyAir tablet as it is core to the system.

May try to dig into this a bit deeper. If aircon companies can replace the tablet with upgraded models, surely there would be a way to configure it to a different touchscreen.
 

I currently have two screens vertically stacked for the doorbell and MyAir so was hoping to consolidate into one but if I can’t get rid of the MyAir tablet...

[esanto1]

Anyone have experience with the C4 wireless pucks that sit in the wall behind existing switches? Curious on responsiveness.

[Don Cohen]

56 minutes ago, eggzlot said:

Sorry its in the 2n App itself, not on the Web

It’s the call notification option on the top.

And that low light performance is dismal.  I’d play around with some of those settings not just keep it at auto.  Adjust a few settings and tweak it to see if you can improve it.  Otherwise it is just a poorly constructed unit.

Thanks.  I'm guessing it's not possible for the 2n App to connect to my DS2, but I may download it and play around with it to see.

As for the low light performance, there really aren't many options to adjust, and I've tried them all.  The Camera Mode is Auto, Always Day, and Always Night.  I have the Brightness Level cranked up as far as it goes, which helped some, but not much (as you can see).  And I don't see any different options in the Driver in Composer Pro.

If anyone knows how to eek out better low light performance, please let me know - I'll be happy to try anything.

[Don Cohen]

1 hour ago, Cartnj said:

I thought I read somewhere not to use the web interface for configuration because it could be overwritten when the driver gets updated since the driver takes priority. (I could be wrong here)

You might be right about this.  Most everything can be configured within the Driver, although if you want to customize the area used for motion detection, I think the web interface is the only place you can do that.  So if you're using that function, you do have to access the DS2 directly.

[eggzlot]

6 minutes ago, Don Cohen said:

Thanks.  I'm guessing it's not possible for the 2n App to connect to my DS2, but I may download it and play around with it to see.

As for the low light performance, there really aren't many options to adjust, and I've tried them all.  The Camera Mode is Auto, Always Day, and Always Night.  I have the Brightness Level cranked up as far as it goes, which helped some, but not much (as you can see).  And I don't see any different options in the Driver in Composer Pro.

If anyone knows how to eek out better low light performance, please let me know - I'll be happy to try anything.

Not sure if it’s possible. The app is free but devices connected to your SIP server need a license with a yearly cost.  Maybe they offer a free trial