Control4 and the Future of ZigBee vs ZWave

[blub]

Hi

The more I look around in the HA world the more I come to the conclusion that Zigbee has almost lost the battle. ZWave offers a huge variety of devices for the HA world and the majority of those are compatible between most HA system - so it is a lot more compelling for a company to develop devices for Zwave instead of ZigBee.

This is in contrast to Zigbee where there are not so many devices available and even those are mostly not compatible between different HA system - good example here is Control4 - we have Zigbee but can't use any regular available device due to Control4's version of Zigbee implementation.
There are probably a couple of reason for that but one is likely a more controllable stream of revenue via certification, dealer channels and own device - however some of that revenue could be recouped via a subscription based model - i.e. making 4sight mandatory

Personally I think this represents an obstacle for the enlargement of Contro4 installation / adoption and also for the future of Control4 at some point as other system using Zwave and newer ZigBee will look more appealing to new customers - here in Europe large companies like Germany Telekom RWE are all pushing there own HA systems.

 

Has anyone heard something of Control4 moving to the new ZigBee 3.0 version which might improve this situation?
 

[dandre]

I realize NOT being a fanboy of C4 is probably bad etiquette on this forum, but I have to agree with you and ask, how does C4 compete with $40 light switches like this?

https://www.amazon.com/GE-Lighting-Required-SmartThings-14294/dp/B01MUCZA1C/ref=lp_13575748011_1_4?srs=13575748011&ie=UTF8&qid=1546957442&sr=8-4

My kitchen has 3 loads that are all 3 way... C4 switches for this room are like $500 compared to $180 for GE.

Edit: I'm including the aux switch since these are 3 way lights.

[LollerAgent]

27 minutes ago, dandre said:

I realize NOT being a fanboy of C4 is probably bad etiquette on this forum, but I have to agree with you and ask, how does C4 compete with $40 light switches like this?

https://www.amazon.com/GE-Lighting-Required-SmartThings-14294/dp/B01MUCZA1C/ref=lp_13575748011_1_4?srs=13575748011&ie=UTF8&qid=1546957442&sr=8-4

My kitchen has 3 loads that are all 3 way... C4 switches for this room are like $500 compared to $180 for GE.

Edit: I'm including the aux switch since these are 3 way lights.

I get it, but you cannot really compare those GE Z-Wave switches to C4 switches.  They don't have double/triple tap, LED feedback indicators, etc.  I generally think Zigbee is easier to "deal" with when it comes to pairing, etc (think Hue).

But - do I think C4 switches are overpriced?  Absolutely.

[eggzlot]

what @LollerAgent said above.  C4 switches have the LED feedback (which you can program), double/triple tap both top and bottom of the rockers, backlight engraved keycaps to place on top, etc.  Plus it also increases your zigbee mesh in the house.  

So just as stated above, are they expensive, yeah probably a bit over priced.  But its way more of a technical unit than a $40 zwave switch.  And btw, you can buy Zwave switches, get the proper Zwave hub, and it will work in C4.

[dandre]

I guess I'm speaking as an end user, I'm not a dealer.  My wife and kid would just be confused if I started telling her to triple-tap stuff, and I have enough tech in my life (I'm an Electronics Engineer).  I just want it to work like a regular old light switch, with the ability to turn on/off without having to get my butt off the couch!  Especially when I'm watching the game and wifey leaves the kitchen light on and it's glaring in the TV.  I don't think I'm alone in that.  Most regular users probably just want to turn it on/off, and have pre-programmed scenes.

When you @eggzlotsay "proper" Zwave hub, which one are you referring to?  Smart-Things ftw?  I could solve my kitchen problem with a $59 hub, and $60 in switches?  Alexa watches TV with me but I also have a C4 remote in hand.

Edit:  My zigbee mesh is substantial, but to me that is the best justification.

[eggzlot]

27 minutes ago, dandre said:

I guess I'm speaking as an end user, I'm not a dealer.  My wife and kid would just be confused if I started telling her to triple-tap stuff, and I have enough tech in my life (I'm an Electronics Engineer).  I just want it to work like a regular old light switch, with the ability to turn on/off without having to get my butt off the couch!  Especially when I'm watching the game and wifey leaves the kitchen light on and it's glaring in the TV.  I don't think I'm alone in that.  Most regular users probably just want to turn it on/off, and have pre-programmed scenes.

When you @eggzlotsay "proper" Zwave hub, which one are you referring to?  Smart-Things ftw?  I could solve my kitchen problem with a $59 hub, and $60 in switches?  Alexa watches TV with me but I also have a C4 remote in hand.

Edit:  My zigbee mesh is substantial, but to me that is the best justification.

I do not use Zwave products but I believe you need a Vera plus hub?  That is the one people say works best in C4.  So someone can edit me if I am wrong.

The double/triple taps I use are more for hidden purposes.  We have one in my bedroom that will do a light scene inside/outside for us if our dog walks up in the middle of the night and needing to use the bathroom.  so in our master bed, a double tap will turn on hallway lights and exterior light by our mud room exit, I still manually turn off the alarm for security reasons.  when i come back i triple tap, those lights go off AND the alarm will go back on.  just an idea how to use taps for odd functions that 90% of the users do not need to know but you know its available.  On the Keypads I use double/triple taps for audio.  to mute, to change turn off, to change a playlist, etc.

and I am speaking as an end user of C4 since 2014.  I am not a dealer nor is my income tied to C4 or CI in any matter.  I am in IT but not at all in this residential CI space.

[mstafford388]

This is more of a value question than a what's better question in my opinion.  Control4's Zigbee switches are certainly more robust and have more features than the cheaper Z-wave switches.  You just have to decide if there is enough value there to make it worth it, and everyone's answer to that would be different.  

[Cyknight]

2 hours ago, dandre said:

I guess I'm speaking as an end user, I'm not a dealer.  My wife and kid would just be confused if I started telling her to triple-tap stuff

You'd be surprised, Having a triple tap on the top and bottom of a switch at each end of the kitchen is really easy to 'remember' when that just shuts all the lights in the kitchen off (or on)

Arguably easier in some scenarios than multiple button everywhere.

But that's all a matter of OPINION.

3 hours ago, dandre said:

I don't think I'm alone in that.  Most regular users probably just want to turn it on/off, and have pre-programmed scenes.

Are you alone? No. do 'most' users want that - I'd have to say it's likely more a 50/50 scenario actually.

 

Z-Wave vs ZigBee for C4 is more or less a non-issue. C4 isn't going to drop their own stack, whether or not they move or add to ZigBee 3 or not. There's a LOT of security measures in there that are a valuable addition actually, eliminating any and all concerns that have popped up with the safety of zigbee and zwave before they even popped up.

But C4 keeping it's own version AND allowing 3rd party other Zwave and/or ZigBee is another matter. Zwave exists already (some native, others via Vera). Maybe it makes sense (I have native supported zwave outlets and sensors in my house and love them) to expand on native support, maybe it's not the route to go - maybe using a 3rd party device is a better choice anyway, which is what C4 already does. I'm NOT a fan of Vera integration myself. I've yet to find a Zwave switch/dimmer that I like even close to as much as C4 stuff (or Lutron, or some of the other already available C4 integrate-able options).

Having a lot of options isn't an improvement if it doesn't add devices that work well and reliably or otherwise improve on what is there already.

 

Regardless:

 

On 1/7/2019 at 5:18 AM, blub said:

Has anyone heard something of Control4 moving to the new ZigBee 3.0 version

No-one would hear a thing until C4 announces it (meaning it is out).

Leaving whether it 'improves' anything or not (or needs improvement) aside.

[Drake0508]

I bought Lutron just to avoid Zigbee. At the time there was no z-wave support in Control4. Now that there is, I keep to z-wave whenever possible. I always had interference with WiFi when I ran Zigbee. 

[Unsocialtoaster]

9 hours ago, Drake0508 said:

I bought Lutron just to avoid Zigbee. At the time there was no z-wave support in Control4. Now that there is, I keep to z-wave whenever possible. I always had interference with WiFi when I ran Zigbee. 

Then the Zigbee and WiFi must not have been setup properly. They are both in the 2.4GHz range, but Zigbee channels are smaller width so if you use the correct WiFI and Zigbee channels then the Zigbee will fit nicely in-between your WiFi and not overlap.

[casperspooks]

Then the Zigbee and WiFi must not have been setup properly. They are both in the 2.4GHz range, but Zigbee channels are smaller width so if you use the correct WiFI and Zigbee channels then the Zigbee will fit nicely in-between your WiFi and not overlap.

What he said.

Excellent article and details at the link:

https://www.metageek.com/training/resources/zigbee-wifi-coexistence.html



Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[blub]

On 1/8/2019 at 3:54 PM, dandre said:

My kitchen has 3 loads that are all 3 way... C4 switches for this room are like $500 compared to $180 for GE.

 

On 1/8/2019 at 4:23 PM, LollerAgent said:

But - do I think C4 switches are overpriced?  Absolutely.

 

On 1/8/2019 at 7:51 PM, Cyknight said:

You'd be surprised, Having a triple tap on the top and bottom of a switch at each end of the kitchen is really easy to 'remember' when that just shuts all the lights in the kitchen off (or on)

🤣

Arguably easier in some scenarios than multiple button everywhere.

But that's all a matter of OPINION.

Are you alone? No. do 'most' users want that - I'd have to say it's likely more a 50/50 scenario actually.

 

Z-Wave vs ZigBee for C4 is more or less a non-issue. C4 isn't going to drop their own stack, whether or not they move or add to ZigBee 3 or not. There's a LOT of security measures in there that are a valuable addition actually, eliminating any and all concerns that have popped up with the safety of zigbee and zwave before they even popped up.

But C4 keeping it's own version AND allowing 3rd party other Zwave and/or ZigBee is another matter. Zwave exists already (some native, others via Vera). Maybe it makes sense (I have native supported zwave outlets and sensors in my house and love them) to expand on native support, maybe it's not the route to go - maybe using a 3rd party device is a better choice anyway, which is what C4 already does. I'm NOT a fan of Vera integration myself. I've yet to find a Zwave switch/dimmer that I like even close to as much as C4 stuff (or Lutron, or some of the other already available C4 integrate-able options).

Having a lot of options isn't an improvement if it doesn't add devices that work well and reliably or otherwise improve on what is there already.

 

Regardless:

 

No-one would hear a thing until C4 announces it (meaning it is out).

Leaving whether it 'improves' anything or not (or needs improvement) aside.

Hi everyone. Sorry for opening a thread and then not showing up for a while but I got really busy and somehow lost track here.

In regard to Control4 switches:

For what those offer, load control, ZigBee mesh, tap options etc. I would say they are probably priced at the higher end of their range but not overpriced - at least in NA.
As mentioned in other threads in Europe those are really overpriced - a dimmer is close to 300€ with a faceplate.
For that price I can get (with KNX):

• a glass touch Keypad with color LCD in the middle (keys a the side)
• 8 buttons, so control of up to 4 loads
• 2 normal switch / load controls devices

So I can get a much better looking LCD decor (the C4 decors look ugly here in Europe since they do not match any common decor style), and I can control one more load than with C4 for the same price. The cheapest KNX 2 load config would be about 260€ - so compared to that Control4 is really overpriced.
All Control4 would need to do here is drop the price to reasonable sub 180-199€ incl. sales tax and make a faceplate and buttons compatible in color and size to European ones - that can't be expensive.

Of course Control4 switches span the ZigBee mesh, but with so few available devices being compatible with Control4 doesn't make this path attractive either.

 

But my post actually wan't about the light switches but that people picked that up 1st shows that Control4's strongest ZigBee product are their switches and that the few other available devices play a much less important role - and that is exactly what is wrong with ZigBee and Control4 in my opinion.
Control4's huge advantage is that it is able to integrate a whole lot of 3rd party devices for automation and AV mostly via IR and IP based communication but as far as wireless goes I would say they are about to miss the boat soon. Native ZWave for Control4 with the EA series was an attempt to compensate for that but in my opinion it failed completely with so few compatible devices it just is not an attractive option.
And by loosing focus of the wireless possibilities which ZigBee 3 offers they are making their own system a lot less attractive compared to competitors in the long term - I mean just look at all the available ZigBee 3.0 devices listed (Link) - who wouldn't find a couple of interesting devices there?  - I know that there also needs to be a driver, but as long as it is not compatible anyway no one would start bothering to write one in the first place. Just think of all those ZLL devices, that would open a whole new world if those could talk directly to Contro4 via ZgBee 3.0.

So bottom line: I really hope Control4 adopts ZigBee 3.0 even if its an extra license it would hugely benefit the overall product and its capabilities.

Edit - just a few I found:

• good/Better looking flood sensor
• Danalock ZigBee v3
• Outlet plugs
• CO/CO2 sensors

 

PS:
I know that the likes of Smart Things is not the target group of Control4 but there are other companies which are working hard in the HA space and all of them together will make it a lot harder for Control4 to keep growing or in the end stay relevant - and I am not even talking about Google, Amazon and Apple here

[RyanE]

Does the KNX installation include wiring twisted pair KNX wiring?

One of the big benefits of Control4 in this situation is that it has very good KNX intetgration.  If you use a KNX Routing Gateway and the new Routing Gateway driver, KNX integration works extremely well, and the KNX lighting drivers are fairly full-functioned.  It will never be as good an integration as Control4's own devices, just due to the 'impedance mismatch' between the Control4 light proxy/UI and the devices themselves, but it's pretty good.

RyanE

[blub]

No it doesn't for the glass touch decors example, that's correct.

However KNX RF S-Mode Keypads would reduce the cost another 40€ in my example and don't need wires - so my point still stands ;-)