msgreenf Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 3 minutes ago, Pounce said: But wouldn't it be great for those customers that are perfectly capable to manage their own system and extend it in ways that are meaningful to them? Honestly not really. It would be great for them but wouldn't help control4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pounce Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 1 minute ago, msgreenf said: Honestly not really. It would be great for them but wouldn't help control4 I have 5 friends that would like a C4 system, but will not on principle. The words they use are "Control4 is polarizing". I didn't defend it. I happen to agree. You probably don't hear enough from qualified non customers. Those are people with money not spending it on control4. How do you think these non customers get this opinion? therockhr 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgreenf Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 2 minutes ago, Pounce said: I have 5 friends that would like a C4 system, but will not on principle. The words they use are "Control4 is polarizing". I didn't defend it. I happen to agree. You probably don't hear enough from qualified non customers. Those are people with money not spending it on control4. How do you think these non customers get this opinion? As far as I see it control4 primary market is home builders. They are seeking to make control4 standard in New construction Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pounce Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 1 minute ago, msgreenf said: As far as I see it control4 primary market is home builders. They are seeking to make control4 standard in New construction Ok, but those 5 people wont buy a home with control4. They wont own control4. Maybe they got their opinion from people that bought those homes and had to live with the polarizing experience. You are talking about short game. What about the long game? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgreenf Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 Just now, Pounce said: Ok, but those 5 people wont buy a home with control4. They wont own control4. Maybe they got their opinion from people that bought those homes and had to live with the polarizing experience. You are talking about short game. What about the long game? It's not my game... Just sharing my insight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pounce Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 Just now, msgreenf said: It's not my game... Just sharing my insight Actually, you deflected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgreenf Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 Just now, Pounce said: Actually, you deflected. No. I don't work for control4 nor am I aware of the non public details of their biz strategy. I am speculating and done with it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pounce Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 I say people are getting a polarizing opinion of c4. You say their market is new home construction. I say my friends wont buy new homes with c4. You say its not your game. So at some point you don't want to discuss why some people wont buy control4 based on what they hear from c4 customers that perhaps have c4 because they bought new construction with c4? You don't want to consider that not polarizing customers helps c4 sell to more customers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgreenf Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 8 minutes ago, Pounce said: You don't want to consider that not polarizing customers helps c4 sell to more customers I agree with you 100% but at the same time you can't please everyone all the time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggzlot Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 46 minutes ago, Pounce said: But wouldn't it be great for those customers that are perfectly capable to manage their own system and extend it in ways that are meaningful to them? Wouldn’t it be great if Southwest Airlines still had general boarding calls and cheap fares but instead of all economy airplanes they had 1/5th of the plane arranged in business class and first class. No extra cost for the tickets though but you get the better seat and extra services like free drinks and hot meals. Just some people who want to show up and queue 10 hours before a flight can get business or first class for the price of coach. So not for everyone but it’s feasible for a small group who want to show up and wait in line Southwest made a business decision to fly all economy and mostly general boarding. Want a seat assignment? Want to fly business class? Book delta, United or American - they use a different business model. Want an automation system that is 100% DIY - don’t buy c4. Want one of the largest most robust commercial automation platforms that has a ton of DIY options but not 100% DIY then look at c4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pounce Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 11 minutes ago, eggzlot said: Wouldn’t it be great if Southwest Airlines still had general boarding calls and cheap fares but instead of all economy airplanes they had 1/5th of the plane arranged in business class and first class. No extra cost for the tickets though but you get the better seat and extra services like free drinks and hot meals. Just some people who want to show up and queue 10 hours before a flight can get business or first class for the price of coach. So not for everyone but it’s feasible for a small group who want to show up and wait in line Southwest made a business decision to fly all economy and mostly general boarding. Want a seat assignment? Want to fly business class? Book delta, United or American - they use a different business model. Want an automation system that is 100% DIY - don’t buy c4. Want one of the largest most robust commercial automation platforms that has a ton of DIY options but not 100% DIY then look at c4. Why do you guys go to such extreme examples when it's so very simply to agree that there are some customers that are qualified to manage their own systems and both them and c4 would benefit from permitted access? therockhr and DIEHARD 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggzlot Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 3 minutes ago, Pounce said: Why do you guys go to such extreme examples when it's so very simply to agree that there are some customers that are qualified to manage their own systems and both them and c4 would benefit from permitted access? Why do some people still ask why when we all know the answer? and my example isn’t extreme - it defines how companies offering the same service may do so in a different fashion to best service a specific market. If business class is required you got 3-4 other domestic airlines for domestic business class routes. But not southwest. Should they change? If you want DIY you got 2-3 choices. What’s extreme? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pounce Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 1 minute ago, eggzlot said: Why do some people still ask why when we all know the answer? Sorry, which question and which answer? The question is "Wouldn't it be nice? and the answer is "Yes". Right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hardware Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 14 minutes ago, Pounce said: Sorry, which question and which answer? The question is "Wouldn't it be nice? and the answer is "Yes". Right? No, the answer is no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pounce Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 3 minutes ago, Hardware said: No, the answer is no. rofl. How about another one then? Wouldn't it be nice if all dealers were competent and efficient? Answer is yes, right? Zuhair 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livitup Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 22 minutes ago, Pounce said: Sorry, which question and which answer? The question is "Wouldn't it be nice? and the answer is "Yes". Right? My 2 cents, for what it's worth... My car integrates components from MANY manufactures. So do jet planes. When my throttle gets stuck and I can't stop and I drive into a wall, who gets the blame? Ford, or the company that sourced the throttle cable, or maybe the computer chip that opened the throttle? When a fan blade separates from a jet engine, slicing through the cabin and killing someone, who gets the blame? Did a "GE Powered Passenger Plane" have a fatal accident, or did a "Southwest Plane" have a fatal accident? Control4 is not so unlike Ford or Southwest, that when their product (which is really built off 1000s of other products with C4's "glue" as the secret sauce) fails, then C4 fails... not Sony, not Samsung, not Apple, not the crappy network in the house... Control4 fails. Control4 knows they have a complex set of kit, and posts on this forum notwithstanding, it works to the customer's satisfaction the majority of the time. A lot of that is because of the dealer network. If I were C4, I would weigh the amount of additional revenue from DIYers, offset by the loss of revenue from people who muck it up and trash the reputation, making the non-DIY customer wary of "that C4 junk" and make a business decision about their distribution, installation, and support model. Oh, wait... I bet they did. alanchow and South Africa C4 user 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hardware Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 Porsche should be embarrassed that they don't want my business. I know myself and so many people who would buy a new $10k Porsche. I can even change the brakes on my own and the oil on my own.. msgreenf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pounce Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 Can I have some of that Koolaid? First, we've gone from "wouldn't it be great for those customers that are perfectly capable to manage their own system and extend it in ways that are meaningful to them?" to using a term that I think you are using in a derogatory way, DIY'r. I think you are also assuming a problem that just hasn't happened and hasn't been tested. What I am talking about are customers more technically qualified than the dealers showing up. The problem for the most part is that there are bad dealers. Having to use a dealer without choice and getting bad ones is a serious customer satisfaction impact. therockhr 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pounce Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 1 minute ago, Hardware said: Porsche should be embarrassed that they don't want my business. I know myself and so many people who would buy a new $10k Porsche. I can even change the brakes on my own and the oil on my own.. Huh? I have a Cayenne Turbo and work on it. What's your point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hardware Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 Just now, Pounce said: Huh? I have a Cayenne Turbo and work on it. What's your point? Good choice. I think a Macan GTS is next for me. My point is just because a demographic is available for business doesn't mean a company alters their product structure when it doesn't make sense. 3 minutes ago, Pounce said: Can I have some of that Koolaid? First, we've gone from "wouldn't it be great for those customers that are perfectly capable to manage their own system and extend it in ways that are meaningful to them?" to using a term that I think you are using in a derogatory way, DIY'r. I think you are also assuming a problem that just hasn't happened and hasn't been tested. What I am talking about are customers more technically qualified than the dealers showing up. The problem for the most part is that there are bad dealers. Having to use a dealer without choice and getting bad ones is a serious customer satisfaction impact. Bad "dealers" exist in all shapes. I didn't have a choice when replacing my HVAC during the holidays in freezing temps. End users tend to act like they are getting raked over the coals with cost. Not all things that cost a lot equal profit for the dealer...who is usually fronting some or all of the equipment cost and overhead costs.You have a choice of who you use. One bad dealer means nothing about the rest in the area. Do some research and have accountability if you want them to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livitup Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 11 minutes ago, Pounce said: Can I have some of that Koolaid? First, we've gone from "wouldn't it be great for those customers that are perfectly capable to manage their own system and extend it in ways that are meaningful to them?" to using a term that I think you are using in a derogatory way, DIY'r. I think you are also assuming a problem that just hasn't happened and hasn't been tested. What I am talking about are customers more technically qualified than the dealers showing up. The problem for the most part is that there are bad dealers. Having to use a dealer without choice and getting bad ones is a serious customer satisfaction impact. First off, I in no way, shape, or form intended "DIYer" to be derogatory. I am a "maker" at heart and constantly DIY stuff. The problem is that C4 has no way of being able to tell if an individual is capable of making a C4 system sing like Pavarotti, or William Hung. In the case of the former, the upside to C4 is probably relatively low, compared to the large downside of the latter (IMHO). Poorly trained and unqualified dealers are a blight on the ecosystem. But at least Control4 has the ability to remove them from the ecosystem (not that they're particularly good at it). Control4 would have NO ability to remove DIYers that do a bad job from the ecosystem. They have made the choice of (ignoring for a moment the issue of untrained/unqualified dealers) retaining control over their ecosystem. I have faith that, as a successful public company, they made that decision after significant analysis and thought. I actually wish that individuals had access to Composer, but I can understand the risk to the brand image that C4 has worked hard to build, and I can understand, agree with, and respect their decision. Hey, it could be worse... We could be on a Crestron forum. South Africa C4 user 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pounce Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 I think you truly want to admit that it would be nice for a truly capable customer to have the freedom to manage their own system. I don't think there is risk the brand if there was a way for a customer to manage their own system. There are all sorts of ways to do things. We don't have to assume the wrong way is the way that would be picked. It's possible the concern is they don't want to people to see the warts. It's not pretty. I'd buy that, but that capable customer I am describing would understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pounce Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 41 minutes ago, Hardware said: My point is just because a demographic is available for business doesn't mean a company alters their product structure when it doesn't make sense. I still don't get this. Sorry. I think we are talking about owning a product we can't as the owner maintain and that a dealer is required. My Porsche dealer would love me to bring it in for oil changes, but I don't have to. I can change my own oil. Ok, I have taken it in on occasion when I wanted to test drive the loaner. With C4 I have friends that would spend the 50-100k, but wont because they can't "change the oil". DIEHARD 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livitup Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 1 hour ago, Pounce said: I think you truly want to admit that it would be nice for a truly capable customer to have the freedom to manage their own system. I don't think there is risk the brand if there was a way for a customer to manage their own system. There are all sorts of ways to do things. We don't have to assume the wrong way is the way that would be picked. It's possible the concern is they don't want to people to see the warts. It's not pretty. I'd buy that, but that capable customer I am describing would understand. I thought I had made it clear that I do think it would be nice for a truly capable customer to have the freedom to manage their own system. For the record, I do wish that it was possible for a truly capable customer to have the freedom to manage their own system. It would have saved me (personally) a lot of effort if a truly capable customer had the freedom to manage their own system. Also for the record, I do understand C4's decision to scope their market as "consumers who are more conscious about a clean, functional finished product, than the ability to build it themselves." And I do understand C4's decision to make business choices that protect the brand image they are interested in protecting. Whether they are right or wrong, I can't tell you, because I haven't done the market research. But I can tell you I face similar decisions regularly in running my business. https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/217926 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livitup Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 1 hour ago, Hardware said: Good choice. I think a Macan GTS is next for me. My point is just because a demographic is available for business doesn't mean a company alters their product structure when it doesn't make sense. BMW and Mercedes make affordable cars with cloth interiors, mechanical seats, and manual transmissions. They sell them for mid-market prices all over Europe. A Mercedes or BMW in Germany is the same as a Ford or Chevy in the US. They're just cars. They choose not to import those less expensive cars to the USA, because both companies have decided to market themselves as a premium brand in the US, and premium brands don't sell cars with cloth interiors. It would cost them nothing to start selling those cars here, and in fact they would probably sell a bunch. But how many people are going to buy the $100,000 BMW when the brand starts selling $20,000 cars to the masses? Maybe everyone in this forum is enlightened to the point where they wouldn't make decisions based on such snooty airs. I'm not making personal judgements on anyone in this forum. But you and I both know that there is a percentage of high revenue customers who would bolt. BMW has chosen not to target the $20,000 car buyer. C4 has chosen not to target the DIYer. While we might wish it were different, I'm just saying I understand why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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