Thoughts? Bad Dealer?

[safety1st]

I have to chime in and I hope I do not offend anyone. I see a lot of negative posts including this one about C4 dealers and their mode of operations...

Here are few Facts:

1. C4 dealers are usually also resellers for other AV equipment such as Samsung, Panasonic, Crestron, URC, etc.

2. AV companies are "for profit" companies.

3. Most AV companies have employees and additional overhead.

4. Respectable AV companies work very hard for their customers so they can get repeat business and referrals.

Those are facts that the company I own since 2001 obeys by.

I know dealers like myself:

1. Do not want to install products customers may have purchased over the internet or @ one of the retail chain stores because:

a. They do not want the liability for a piece of equipment purchased somewhere else.

(I can't remember the amount of times customers called us for a defective product they purchased @ costco or over the internet that we installed)...

b. They lose a substantial part of $$$ on profit on equipment sale (and believe me when I say that dealer's profit have gone radically down in the past 10 years).

As I previously stated - AV integrators are "for profit" companies.

- As the owner of my company, I have made a business decision, few years ago, to work with customers who purchased equipment elsewhere but have a contract which stipulates that we are not responsible for poor performance results or defects in the equipment they have not purchased from us.

- C4 and all other AV manufacturers have dealer locators on their respective websites. If you are unhappy with one dealer's response, go to the next one until you find someone willing to work with you and you with them; it's a two way street. Some dealers will work on a Time & Material basis.

Last but not least - I personally have customers who I have known and still work for since we opened in 2001!

I view my business relationship as a long term relationship, one that benefits us as well as the customer.

Thank you for your time.

I believe this to be the best approach. 99.9% of the time we don't mind installing equipment that is pre-existing/purchased somewhere else. If we do have an issue incorporating this equipment it is for functionality reasons. (ie We want this existing surround sound receiver to be the brain behind our 4 room distributed audio system and we don't want to buy a speaker selector/volume control. We will just put it on multi channel stereo and go with it.) This type of situation tends to lead to issues such as "You installed it and we are unhappy with the performance. I want you to fix it but I don't feel I should compensate you for your time." I will say that if a customer asks for a local price match we 99.9% of the time we will honor it without physical proof if within reason. There are some instances where the other prices are incredible deals & below our cost. This then becomes a business decision. Is this customer buying this one item under our cost or are they buying $1000 worth of items and this price match will lose us 50 but make us 200 by closing the sale. This is ultimately up to the business owner. The bottom line in most situations, is what's best for the customer when it comes to our business. Granted we do have the occasional person who is unreasonable. (ie I bought my sound bar from you and I am within my 30 day return period but I knocked it off my tv stand during installation and I physically damaged/broke it. I want you to replace it or I'll never shop with you again.) While we don't want to lose this customer is it a good decision to replace the unit? I'll let you decide.

Everyone here has made valid points. I feel it is best to stay calm and resolve your issues like adults. I would say that the customer is ultimately in control of where their money goes. The customer should choose the dealer who they feel is the most knowledgeable/reliable. Make your decision based on whats right for you long term. If you save 1500 now, how much will you potentially have to pay later in service calls & frustration from a non functional system?

The company I work for relies on store management to make ethical day to day business decisions based on the policy and procedures set forth by the corp. Not every company owner or store management, in my case, will always make the decision the customer wants to here but should be open to the customers request and respectful to said customer. If you feel the dealer has done this then I, personally, would feel comfortable moving forward with his products and services. We ALWAYS hate to say the word NO to a customer but we try to give an explanation also. What did your dealer say about his reasons for the decision?

[ILoveC4]

My next door neighbor loves to come "chat" with service providers who come to my house. He entices them with thoughts that he will give them lucrative new work. They perform services for him, sometimes. He then offers them a fraction of the agreed price. If they refuse, he won't pay. Whenever I see this going on, I try to warn the service provider. I hope that they have the good sense to turn down his business. Platitudes aside, sometimes deciding not to work with a particular customer is exactly the right thing to do.

Yeah, you have to fire the customer sometimes. It call comes down to a cost/benefit evaluation. If you have a client constantly sucking up your time, beating you up on price, impossible to please, etc... cut him/her lose and move on. Sometimes it just isn't worth it.

EDIT: I'm not a C4 dealer and don't work in this industry. I'm just saying this as a blanket statement about conducting business in general.

[smarch]

A little more background:

I started my Control4 system in 2008. this same dealer sold me all of the C4 products installed and programmed everything. Since then I have constantly added on and this dealer added things to my system and prgrammed, at an expensive rate (to me). I have never questioned the invoice, or amount spent. The service has always been good. Looking back I am the easiest customer he probably ever had. I never had to argue at all, and was more than willing to pay him to come back and prgram or install.

I will now look for another dealer. To blantly charge more simply because he thinks Im handcuffed is wrong in my opinion. I own a business as well If I treated customers like this, I'd be out of bussiness very shortly.

[cdepaola]

To blantly charge more simply because he thinks Im handcuffed is wrong in my opinion.

Don't assume that he is blatantly charging you more, integrators/custom installers don't typically have the same purchasing power on things like TV's and AVR's as do big box stores. My dealer pricing on tv's is considerably more expensive then say Vann's or 5th Ave... So he may be giving you "his" best price. This is why I think a good dealer understands that on some items they simply can't purchase as well as the big box's.

[ILoveC4]

To blantly charge more simply because he thinks Im handcuffed is wrong in my opinion.

Don't assume that he is blatantly charging you more, integrators/custom installers don't typically have the same purchasing power on things like TV's and AVR's as do big box stores. My dealer pricing on tv's is considerably more expensive then say Vann's or 5th Ave... So he may be giving you "his" best price. This is why I think a good dealer understands that on some items they simply can't purchase as well as the big box's.

So if that's the case explain it to the customer, let them decide where to buy it, sell them what you can and charge them to integrate it all.

[cdepaola]

^Agree 100% and this is what we do regularly, why others won't/don't I never understood. Our customers live that we are looking out for their best interests, we've even had some decide to buy from us at a higher price because we did this.

[turls]

I don't understand why a dealer thinks he has to make 30-50 points on hardware. Most will already get that on C4 sales. Just charge a fair price for your labor and what is the problem? Why do you have to get so much margin on commodity hardware? I'm sure most end users will pay top dollar for programming or any truck rolls that involve this equipment. It is really shooting the industry in the foot in my opinion. They are going to run out of suckers to play that game.

[RyanE]

I don't understand why the grocery store has to have a markup on what they sell to me.

They should sell it at the price they buy it at. They should just charge me a (SMALL!) percentage of what the employees' salary is.

It's not like they have overhead, or have to pay employees to just be standing around waiting for me to come in and buy something. It's not like they have property tax, or rent, or utilities that have to be paid.

I should also be able to tell them what an "acceptable" markup is.

They shouldn't have to figure that out by being wise businesspeople.

RyanE

[RyanE]

They should also be able to make enough to stay in business by ONLY marking up the produce.

Why should they be able to mark up things in the drugs and personal care items MORE than they do on the produce?

It's *SO UNFAIR!!!!*

RyanE

[cdepaola]

Seriously? No one is advocating this scenario. I think everyone understands that dealers have to cover costs and make money in the end, it's a business. However if a dealer is getting a 50% margin they are doing exceptionally well. Personally we shoot for 20-30% on equipment, it's a fair markup that we cover cost and make a few dollars.

People are so sensitive about their margins...

[RyanE]

Seriously? No one is advocating this scenario.

Nor am I, obviously.

Personally we shoot for 20-30% on equipment, it's a fair markup that we cover cost and make a few dollars.

If you determine that the margin you're getting is sufficient, that's awesome.

The margin *you* make may not be enough for a different dealer, who may have different overhead and costs, due to many reasons: Market, Level of Service, etc.

There's no practical way to tell whether a dealer is 'ripping off' customers. Most dealers (even those who make a margin on all product they sell) are not getting rich being CE dealers.

RyanE

[Letran]

So I thought I would relay a recent story and see what everyone else thought.

Recently I finished of a theatre room. So I was getting quotes on the AV portion of it (projector, screen AV receiver, 7.1 speakers etc etc). For me this added up to a lot of money. My Control4 dealer also sells all of this equipment, so I sent him my list and asked for pricing. He is the only dealer around this area for Control4 products.

Unfortunately his quote on the AV gear came back the highest. I expressed this to him, and told him I would be buying the Control4 stuff from him regardless. dimmers (6) , 300 ntroller and SR250. I also faxed him the 3 other written quotes on the AV gear. His response to me, was sorry I won't sell you the Control4 products unless I'm supplying everything on the list. I asked him to atelast try to match or come close to the others. He would not. The difference was about $1500.00 in total.

So in the end I was forced to buy from him at a premium.

Does this sound right to you?

Wow, this become another sensitive C4 User Vs C4 Dealer topic.

Very strange relationship I say, each one would not exist without the other.

This is how I see it. ECONOMICS, VALUE & RELATIONSHIP

My wife sends me out grocery shopping. One list for Walmart and another list from the small grocer across the street. I ask why not get it all at Walmart? She says Walmart has better prices for the first list. The list for the small grocer have the same price or a little more but she knows its fresher and the grocer serves with a smile.

Well I'm a lazy, So I said I'll buy them all from the small grocer. The difference didn't bother me so much and I'm paying a little more for the convenience. In actuality, I still had to go to Walmart because the small grocer said these items he cannot carry at a reasonable price offered by big box stores, knowing this he decided as a business man not to stock the product. I liked his explanation and also keeps his integrity the way he does business.

I valued that relationship and whenever I could I go there to buy my groceries.

I tell you this though, IF that grocer tells me that I HAVE to buy it all from him to keep his doors open I'll be out of there in a hurry and never come back

Most people are always going to buy where they can strech their dollar. Scaring them out of that choice or will only work for so long until repeat business and referrals stop coming.

Businesses HAVE every right to mark-up whatever they want. Just don't wonder why people are not coming through your door

[smarch]

My point is that if I walked into this store he would sell me the C4 stuff, no problem. And has many times in the past. Typically I buy A/V stuff any where and he gladly rolls a truck and sends someone to do the programming. Never had an issue. This time, because he knew I was buying a lot of different stuff, he refused to sell me the C$ stuff unless I bought everything from him.

Sorry that's just wrong.

[turls]

I don't get where a grocery store is an valid analogy. A grocery store doesn't really sell a service, they sell a product. C4/CI dealers seem to want to sell both the commodity stuff and the "exclusive" stuff at a large markup. Plus they charge a pretty penny for labor. They can charge whatever they want, I went to CEDIA, I saw how they bad mouthed Amazon. Same antiquated thinking that the Wal-Mart haters have.

[smarch]

"Sorry sir you can't buy your bread here unless you get your meat here too, and you'll have to pay %15 more for that meat than anywhere else".

[RyanE]

It's certainly well within the dealer's right to do exactly that, and you're well within your rights to tell them what you think of it by not purchasing there.

RyanE

[neil12011]

wocka x2

[eytanvestin]

So I thought I would relay a recent story and see what everyone else thought.

Recently I finished of a theatre room. So I was getting quotes on the AV portion of it (projector' date=' screen AV receiver, 7.1 speakers etc etc). For me this added up to a lot of money. My Control4 dealer also sells all of this equipment, so I sent him my list and asked for pricing. He is the only dealer around this area for Control4 products.

Unfortunately his quote on the AV gear came back the highest. I expressed this to him, and told him I would be buying the Control4 stuff from him regardless. dimmers (6) , 300 ntroller and SR250. I also faxed him the 3 other written quotes on the AV gear. His response to me, was sorry I won't sell you the Control4 products unless I'm supplying everything on the list. I asked him to atelast try to match or come close to the others. He would not. The difference was about $1500.00 in total.

So in the end I was forced to buy from him at a premium.

Does this sound right to you?[/quote']

Wow, this become another sensitive C4 User Vs C4 Dealer topic.

Very strange relationship I say, each one would not exist without the other.

This is how I see it. ECONOMICS, VALUE & RELATIONSHIP

My wife sends me out grocery shopping. One list for Walmart and another list from the small grocer across the street. I ask why not get it all at Walmart? She says Walmart has better prices for the first list. The list for the small grocer have the same price or a little more but she knows its fresher and the grocer serves with a smile.

Well I'm a lazy, So I said I'll buy them all from the small grocer. The difference didn't bother me so much and I'm paying a little more for the convenience. In actuality, I still had to go to Walmart because the small grocer said these items he cannot carry at a reasonable price offered by big box stores, knowing this he decided as a business man not to stock the product. I liked his explanation and also keeps his integrity the way he does business.

I valued that relationship and whenever I could I go there to buy my groceries.

I tell you this though, IF that grocer tells me that I HAVE to buy it all from him to keep his doors open I'll be out of there in a hurry and never come back

Most people are always going to buy where they can strech their dollar. Scaring them out of that choice or will only work for so long until repeat business and referrals stop coming.

Businesses HAVE every right to mark-up whatever they want. Just don't wonder why people are not coming through your door

I like your story but @ the same time, you do not expect your apples to interact with the pineapple unless you make a fruit salad...

Here, you may have a dealer who does not want to sell C4 equipment because he is:

1. Greedy...

2. Does not want to integrate equipment he is not familiar with.

3. Does not want to integrate equipment he didn't sell so he is not blamed if something is not performing properly.

[eytanvestin]

They should also be able to make enough to stay in business by ONLY marking up the produce.

Why should they be able to mark up things in the drugs and personal care items MORE than they do on the produce?

It's *SO UNFAIR!!!!*

RyanE

Ryan,

I hope you are being sarcastic...

[dgbrown]

or 4. Doesn't want/need the work right now, prices himself high as a way of not declining the work (customer should look elsewhere), but maybe willing to take it on for an increased margin (aka the sucker tax)

[cdepaola]

wocka x2

This video is completely ridiculous...

People "generally" don't agree to a price, sign a contract, and then try to negotiate after the work is completed. The ones that do either pay the agreed upon fee or end up in court.

However, negotiating a price prior to a sale is the way business is done... Does anyone here walk into a car dealer and pay the sticker price or even accept their first offer?

[cdepaola]

2. Does not want to integrate equipment he is not familiar with.

3. Does not want to integrate equipment he didn't sell so he is not blamed if something is not performing properly.

If this is the case he should stop selling a product that was designed and is marketed for retrofits...

I think #4 is the most realistic: Doesn't want/need the work right now, prices himself high as a way of not declining the work (customer should look elsewhere), but maybe willing to take it on for an increased margin (aka the sucker tax).

[wappinghigh]

wocka x2

That video was hilarious Neil. But the irony is a control4 project becomes just like the open ended night out. Start with "Dinner" and who knows where it will end (and what the final "cost" may be.)

So sometimes it's just plain hard to nail down a quote. It's all about expectations I guess.

Can't wait for the Control4 dealer vs user xtranormal version :cool:

[drro]

Awesome video, Neil. My personal experience is that focusing on being a good customer (communicating clearly, being understanding of unforeseen circumstances, paying promptly, and saving the "emergency" label for when I really need to use it) nets me much better customer service and, in most cases, much better results.

[jwhitaker@revit]

Back to the topic.....

Not defending any ones side in this issue. However I do know why some dealers back away from client provided equipment and product bought from other dealers or big box stores. NOTE: we don't take this stance, we have plenty of great clients that provided thier own equipment, or purchased outside of our company.

Issue #1 / Especially with C4 gear bought outside of a company. There are the unwanted issues getting all products on like firmware, dealing with out of warranty or "ghost beta product" and a host of other issues like embernet etc. The time and cost that could be wasted in this in some cases should justify the difference in cost.

Issue #2 / WARRANTY. I have seen some friends of mine that had clients who bought TV's from Best Buy / Amazon. After the set was installed after a period of time the set went bad. Display was still under warranty. In one instance the client refused to pay the dealer the cost of removing and reinstalling the new display and adding a new driver to the project as it was a new model they were replacing it with had a different driver. I think you get the point here, as IF the display was bought from the dealer the warranty with the dealer would have covered everything. In a second instance where a display went out the dealer had given and instructed the client that he needed to register the warranty for the display that the client bought himself. The dealer installed the display, and in about 9 months the display died. the client had not registered the product warranty so the manufacturer would not replace it. Then the client goes on to tell the dealer that HE had to replace the display just because he installed it. Strange but true story.

#3 Trusting your dealer. If you can't trust your dealer to supply your products don't use them. Period. Yes some dealers may charge a little more for an HC800. In that same token do you think that the "less expensive dealer" is going to do a network optimization for it, or run system logs and diagnostics to create a system load balancing plan, or even verify that the controller is on the most current release and apply any needed software patches for devices? There are some reasons besides overhead that cause some dealers to be a little more pricey.

Like I said we are not a company that turns down potential clients because they provided gear whether it be bought from another dealer or even eBay. having said this a couple of our amazing clients who come to this forum can confirm that there have been issues with gear that was not provided from us that some major overhaul work had to be done to.

Just food for thought to get us back on the thread topic instead of bashing one another.