Guess what's missing in almost ALL media players...yet it's crucial...

You got it.... a live TV tuner.

Q/ WHY?

A/ 1/ Ability to record right off the media player, without stuffing around via computer

2/ Not all plasma/LCD displays have a TV tuner

3/ If upgrading to High def....don't have to buy another Set top box

4/ Even if your TV has a HD tuner already. Another tuner is very useful, as you can record another show whilst watching a different one at the same time....

Will the C4 media player have one of these or a facility to attach one of these say via USB?

Would forum members mind helping me compile a list of current/potential media players or solutions WITH an embedded Live TV tuner, or the facility to add Live TV...which also have good C4 drivers.

I'll start a list (please correct me if I'm wrong.)

DEVICE C4 CONTROL LIVETV LIVE TV Set up "Geek factor"^ MEDIA CENTRE GUI

Apple Mac One way. IR. YES Large. via Elgato tuner and plugin. GOOD

(Frontrow)

Apple TV One way. Adequate NO GOOD

XBMC Two way. Excellent ?YES Huge. Uses MythTV "and others" GOOD

(depends on underlying platform)

Control4 Two way. Excellent ?NO Await details

Pioneer ETAP Two way. ?Excellent Not sure Promising

TIVO Good one way IR YES Simple. Embedded in Product Adequate

Beyonwiz One way IR. : work in progress YES Simple. Embedded in Product POOR (text based only)

(Aussie product)

Plex Not Sure. Driver requested NO (Almost certain) GOOD

SageTV One way IP. ? 2 way? YES Moderate. Via HDHomerun/Pinacle/Haupp/Elgato etc GOOD

MS Media Centre ?hopeless* YES Moderate. Internal/External USB...various GOOD

Moxi Not Sure YES Simple. Not Sure

* see http://www.c4forums.com/viewtopic.php?id=3129

^ Geek Factor is an estimate only...

Cable boxes have been excluded

Opinions listed above are just that. They're not factual. Or tested. It's an area dotted with land mines...

The tivo units have good drivers. IR.

Thanks...how about the others seen at CEDIA...??

Why Oh Why Oh Why doesn't Apple release an Apple TV with 1080p and compatible USB tuner (depending on market PAL/NTSC etc ..eg the Elgato????) which integrates right into frontrow. Surely this is not beyond the reach of such an innovative company and current hardware/software limitations.

And why would C4 go to all the trouble of designing a media player without similar function?

I will refuse to buy either without these features. I mean I just don't get it, Why are they missing the boat here..:/

Because most of the market already has a digital tuner in their tv, or subscribes to premium services (satellite, cable, fios, et al), or has a tivo. Here anyway. With the exception of Windows Media Center (which has an IR driver by the way as well), I know very few people who dont fit into the above categories. Because when you put in a tv tuner and the ability to record, then it becomes a totally different animal - likely the same reason why we still dont have Blu-ray recorders here in the US with HDTV tuners like you see in Japan.

@wappinghigh

I hear your pain, however, I disagree it's a glaring hole. I think you're saying "tuner" and not "recorder". Another major device you're missing is Slingbox.

I'm ok that my Apple TV doesn't include a tuner because one is built into my TV. You have a TV without a built-in tuner?

Adding this may add cost and features that the majority of consumers don't want or need. It may also change the footprint and other power/heating/noise/performance dynamics of the devices. It also sounds like you're moving into Cable Card territory. Trying to partner with a Cable Provider sounds like a nightmare to me. Unfortunately, we have to use the cable providers set top box in most cases.

What you listed are "players" and as such likely wont include "record" capabilities. It's part of the definition of the device (you called them media players, not me). XBMC and Boxee can stream live TV from MythTV. I think this is the direction media players should go (supporting live streaming from a tuning/recording device).

In the case of Apple, just consider how much of a cash cow the iTunes Store is. Do you think they really want to mess with that formula by distracting users away from the iTunes Store to get content? Absolutely not. I'm not shocked or surprised (but I am disappointed).

The only plasma/LCD displays I have seen that are not considered computer monitors and don't include a tuner are extremely high end commercial units, definitely not designed for consumer use.

When I say extremely high end I mean extremely. NEC units that are $40k for. 60", that type of extreme.

While this would be a neat feature, it wouldn't get used at my house. We use what the cable company gives us - their DVR.

While this would be a neat feature, it wouldn't get used at my house. We use what the cable company gives us - their DVR.

Ditto!

I'm just trying to differentiate "tuner" and "recorder". As a media player, I think having a "tuner" fits into the philosophy of the device to "play" content. I strongly disagree that media players need "record" capabilities because that is an entirely different product.

A player is light, small, low powered and quiet. I consider storage on a player as optional. A recorder is big, heavy, high powered and likely louder due to needing more fans and powering more drives.

The benefit in my opinion to having a media player that also acts as a DVR would be that you already have it set up to know where your files are, so you could have it set to digitize TV shows and categorize/organize them correctly automatically.

It would be nice, because then you dont have to switch sources to change between choosing recorded shows and live shows, but really isnt all that necessary. Definitely not a glaring hole IMO, although I can see the benefits. If you want to get rid of cable/satellite and just use a media player with an antenna it would definitely be helpful.

The other thing to keep in mind is that there is a trend to move away from live TV distribution to a download/streaming model such as Hulu, Netflix on Demand, Boxee, etc. If you are interested in regular network shows then they can be found through these services and/or on other less legal methods such as Bittorrent. The big thing that is missing is live sports.

Of course none of this applies here in Canada due to the silly geographical licensing of media content.

But having a tuner isn't easy to deal with given all of the DRM restrictions that we have to deal with today. As mentioned above there is no easy way to get premium content from cable/satellite directly to a media player (i.e. without using a cable/sat box) . The one device is the CableCard and it hasn't achieved very high acceptance.

I think the best model is what I have built at home - a PC based server with multiple TV tuners (including Hauppauge HD-PVRs connected to HD cable boxes) connected to multiple media extenders, in this instance Sage HD Theater extenders, throughout the house wherever you have TVs. These extenders can receive live TV, recorded TV, DVD rips, BluRay Rips, Divx, MKV, music, photos, etc.

media player = plays digitally saved (audio/video) media

set top boxes seem to deal with TV, but some are starting to support playing media stored on desktops and NASes. Like DirecTV's Media Share http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/global/contentPage.jsp?assetId=P4310202

Byron

Yeah FIOS is coming out with one of those as well, we'll see how well they do with 1080p MKVs

If they do a good job then we can pretty much say goodbye to the independent media player market for the masses, itll stay a geek thing.

In the case of Apple, just consider how much of a cash cow the iTunes Store is. Do you think they really want to mess with that formula by distracting users away from the iTunes Store to get content? Absolutely not. I'm not shocked or surprised (but I am disappointed).

I think you hit the nail on the head here. It's all about business models and subscription revenue and movie rights and NOT about consumer convenience.

What a mediacentre with PVR/tuner capabilities all rolled into one does, is it does a couple of things

1/ Adds convenience. Makes it easy to do everything and scroll around all media and choose all on the one device

2/ Adds networkability, so the devices can all stream or pull content and LIVETV to/from different TV zones without he need for expensive matrix switches and the like and multiple room cable subscription fees...

I'm not sure it matters whether it is a STB with media player capability, a media player with a tuner, a computer with a tuner and something like mythTV, or whatever. It also doesn't matter whether the live TV stream comes from a cable company, a digital ariel or the internet. As long as all your digital media INCLUDING live TV can be accessed and controlled easily on the one device....

I think an Apple TV with live TV from either the internet or an attached tuner, or Apple TV running XBMC with an EASY to integrate live TV solution like Myth or SAGE TV, would be pretty darn close to the all in one devices I'm looking for...

But really all is lost if the platform has a cumbersome menu and GUI and you can't get good control from a good C4 driver. Hence my question about which one has the best C4 driver

If the pioneer ETAP project can somehow do live TV, it has a menu set up like XBMC (which it appears to have)...AND all the rumours of C4 integration are really true, then perhaps this is THE multifuction device I would consider for my next upgrade...at least it seems to have open content...this thread sums it up: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1178482

but let's see what "deals" are struck to get it off the ground. And how much commerciality eventually ruins the whole concept....

Sorry to be sceptical..:/ .but so many times it is what the revenue boys want to push to you that seems to find it's way into these sort of products, not easy functionality for a bloke and his not so tech savy family of females

SageTV 1-way IP Live TV/DVR yes

can record HD via component video with hauppauge hd-pvr in m2ts and play back on a networked PS3

Thanks for that!

I've added SageTV to the list.

OK a bit of research tells me I can get a LIVE TV function into Sage using a local Aussie EPG (Ice TV) It's a fiddle but it can be done...

A couple of questions...

1/ just how good is the GUI?

2/ How good is the C4 IP driver?

3/ Do you use the driver to control just the Sage HD theatre extenders

4/ Is Sage Hardware available outside the US

The stock GUI isn't all that great but there are plugins to change that. It requires a little bit of reading/work to install them correctly.

The driver I'm using has all the controls except Power on - launch application but it's a DVR so I leave it on all the time for scheduled recordings. Also, you must install Neilm's webserver. The Controls work fine.

Someone has created a two driver. I don't know if they will sell to other dealers or not, but I have no need for it:

http://www.homeautomatedsolutions.co.uk/

It's available outside the US but the question is what service are you going to use to get guide data. In the US the service is free. You might have to pay for xmltv or some other guide service available for Australia.

It's not for everyone, but there aren't very many options for capturing HD video with no strings attached i.e. stuck on tivo or cablebox hard drive.

Because most of the market already has a digital tuner in their tv, or subscribes to premium services (satellite, cable, fios, et al), or has a tivo. Here anyway. With the exception of Windows Media Center (which has an IR driver by the way as well), I know very few people who dont fit into the above categories. Because when you put in a tv tuner and the ability to record, then it becomes a totally different animal - likely the same reason why we still dont have Blu-ray recorders here in the US with HDTV tuners like you see in Japan.

OK. Point taken

At the moment I am using Beyonwiz for my digital video streaming and live TV. It's an Aussie product and very close to an all in one. It's a networkable HD STB, PVR, that will also stream MKV's. Even records content from our cable provider (albeit in s-video). I have one of these out at each TV zone. But the media centre part has a very primitive GUI. And the C4 driver is rubbish (my dealer and I are working on this!)

So if the Control 4 Media player is small, quick, and handles MKV's..maybee the answer is to add one of these boxes on top, out at each zone...and keep the Beyonwiz's.

Looking forward to C4's mediaplayer release so I can take a closer look....

... OMG..just checked..doesn't the C4 mediaplayer stream MKV's??

It's available outside the US but the question is what service are you going to use to get guide data. In the US the service is free. You might have to pay for xmltv or some other guide service available for Australia.

I'm always recycling old MAC's around the house, so a computer based server is not an issue! There is a local EPG guide service (IceTV). Actually it's a very good one. Can access and schedule recording from the web . Even an iphone app, all for a small subscription fee. This is not a problem. I'll make some enquiries on the regional thread at SageTV forums to see where I can buy the extender hardware...thanks for the help:)

... OMG..just checked..doesn't the C4 mediaplayer stream MKV's??

Full list of supported codecs will be available when the open books announcement comes.

Moxi dvr is a great dvr solution from the looks of it, not sure of its media support but I would imagine they'd be very open to working with c4

Just thought I'd let you know about the 2 way functions of my Sagetv driver!

Currently provides selection of DVD's via all navigators I.e coverart on touch screens, and lists on remotes. When v2 is available I will be adding apps to retrieve recording data and channel lists etc, also some events to be used during programming in composer. We base our systems on windows home server and have mymovies manage the movie data for sagetv, I am also looking into retrieving the data automatically for display on navigator.

It can also be specified in each driver instance which sage client you wish to control.

Andy

Home Automated Solutions

once the app platform comes out for 2.0 people will probably be able to write tv guide and recording apps too

once the app platform comes out for 2.0 people will probably be able to write tv guide and recording apps too

What is the advantage of this rather than using SageTV extenders, etc? The Sage extenders cost $180 and can play back almost all types of media. Why not put those at all of your TVs rather than HC-300s (or other C4 controllers) and have a Sage add-in that can control you lights and other C4 devices. Sage is built to handle media, especially live and recorded TV and now has support for Fanart that looks great. Will C4 controllers be able to play back streamed HD content, including content in H.264 format, DVD rips, etc? All of that is available today (actually it was available about 18 months ago) in Sage. How much will C4 charge for a controller that can do all that - I bet it would be more than $180.

In other words, why not use a Sage device to control your C4 system rather than your C4 system to control Sage. From my perspective Sage is also a lot more "open" than C4 is to having using built addon functionality.

Here is an example of what you get when you select a TV show in SageTV this is thanks to the Fanart addition to the UI that was put in by some users.

once the app platform comes out for 2.0 people will probably be able to write tv guide and recording apps too

What is the advantage of this rather than using SageTV extenders' date=' etc? The Sage extenders cost $180 and can play back almost all types of media. Why not put those at all of your TVs rather than HC-300s (or other C4 controllers) and have a Sage add-in that can control you lights and other C4 devices. Sage is built to handle media, especially live and recorded TV and now has support for Fanart that looks great. Will C4 controllers be able to play back streamed HD content, including content in H.264 format, DVD rips, etc? All of that is available today (actually it was available about 18 months ago) in Sage. How much will C4 charge for a controller that can do all that - I bet it would be more than $180.

In other words, why not use a Sage device to control your C4 system rather than your C4 system to control Sage. From my perspective Sage is also a lot more "open" than C4 is to having using built addon functionality.

Here is an example of what you get when you select a TV show in SageTV this is thanks to the Fanart addition to the UI that was put in by some users.

[url']http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3131/3086337843_c16f927706_o.jpg

Sage tv won't control a Control 4 system

Sage tv won't control a Control 4 system

Wouldn't it be fairly simple to write such a controller - you could even use some of the CGI code that was on the "old" C4 blog. Control4 doesn't publish an API do they? If they did it would be quite easy to do this.